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Searching for the Model 12 / 16B service manual

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Hans01

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Who has a copy or know where to find the Model 12 / 16B technical manual with the schematics of these computers.
 
Hans01 said:
Who has a copy or know where to find the Model 12 / 16B technical manual with the schematics of these computers.
Click to expand...

Hans, do you need something specific that isn't addressed by the 6000's service manual that we already have? I know the 16B's service manual would have the 6MHz 68000 board's schematic, which we don't otherwise have, but the Z80 board didn't change much between the 12, 16B, and 6000.

Having said that, I would love to see the 12 SM and the 16B SM, much like I would love to see the Model 4 non-gate-array/gate-array combo SM scanned and archived. This way you do have relatively complete documentation on what is really out there.
 
lowen said:
Hans, do you need something specific that isn't addressed by the 6000's service manual that we already have? I know the 16B's service manual would have the 6MHz 68000 board's schematic, which we don't otherwise have, but the Z80 board didn't change much between the 12, 16B, and 6000.

Having said that, I would love to see the 12 SM and the 16B SM, much like I would love to see the Model 4 non-gate-array/gate-array combo SM scanned and archived. This way you do have relatively complete documentation on what is really out there.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see the Model 4 service manual, too. All I've ever found is the 4P service manual.
 
@Iowen, Alphasite

Yes the motherboard of my Model 12 could not boot anymore and was dead.
The motherboard is totally different from all other Big Tandys. It has the Floppy controller, two memory banks, Serial and parallel output
integrated on the motherboard. The schematic of these parts differs a lot from the stand alone interface boards.
It took me a lot of time to find the problem and repair the motherboard, so a schematic would be very helpful if it happens a second time.

I have the Model 4/4p Technical reference manual, you can download it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yooje6cxz...anual (1984)(Tandy Corporation)(pdf).zip?dl=0
 
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Hans01 said:
@Iowen, Alphasite
The motherboard is totally different from all other Big Tandys. It has the Floppy controller, two memory banks, Serial and parallel output
integrated on the motherboard.
Click to expand...

The 12, 16B and 6000 motherboard are pretty much identical. I did find the Model 12 Service Manual awhile ago. However, I haven't scanned it yet because for all intents and purposes the contents are identical to what you will find in the 6000 service manual.
 
Hans01 said:
@Iowen, Alphasite

Yes the motherboard of my Model 12 could not boot anymore and was dead.
The motherboard is totally different from all other Big Tandys. It has the Floppy controller, two memory banks, Serial and parallel output
integrated on the motherboard. The schematic of these parts differs a lot from the stand alone interface boards.
It took me a lot of time to find the problem and repair the motherboard, so a schematic would be very helpful if it happens a second time.

I have the Model 4/4p Technical reference manual, you can download it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yooje6cxz...anual (1984)(Tandy Corporation)(pdf).zip?dl=0
Click to expand...

I already have the Technical Reference Manual. The Service Manual (if it's like the 4P Service Manual) has more details on troubleshooting and repair.
 
pski said:
The 12, 16B and 6000 motherboard are pretty much identical. I did find the Model 12 Service Manual awhile ago. However, I haven't scanned it yet because for all intents and purposes the contents are identical to what you will find in the 6000 service manual.
Click to expand...

Pete, Thank you for the information. It could have been a great help to repair my Model 12.
I hope you find some time to scan the Model 12 service manual ;)
 
Hans01 said:
Pete, Thank you for the information. It could have been a great help to repair my Model 12.
I hope you find some time to scan the Model 12 service manual ;)
Click to expand...

I will scan it if we really deem it necessary, but I compared the contents thouroughly to the 6000 manual and could find no differences. I might revisit this to be sure though.
 
Bonjour,
I am also interested in this manual M12 and all manuals M12 (MODEL 12 OWNER'S MANUAL )
MODEL 12 OWNER'S MANUAL seems to indicate how to connect an HD
I am waiting for an Ian card to test FredHD on M2 and others M12/16
I change the FredHD BUS to connect to an M2 / 12/16
Will the result be satisfactory?
A+
Pascal

Je suis aussi interressé par ce manuel M12 et tous les manuel M12
MODEL 12 OWNER'S MANUAL semble indiquer comment brancher un HD
J'attends une carte de Ian pour faire des essais de FredHD sur M2 et autres
Je modifie le BUS FredHD pour se connecter sur un M2/12/16
Le résultat sera satisfaisant?
 
P.H said:
Bonjour,
I am also interested in this manual M12 and all manuals M12 (MODEL 12 OWNER'S MANUAL )
MODEL 12 OWNER'S MANUAL seems to indicate how to connect an HD
Click to expand...

We have the Model 12 Owners Manual in the model2archive. It has a very short section on using hard drives but only about transferring files. I have the 15 MB Hard Drive Owner's Manual which is probably what you want and most appropriate for the Model 12 which I have not scanned yet. I'll try to get to it soon.
 
Bonjour,
Yes, I reseach the maximum documentation on the Hard Drives.

Ian sends me a Type 2 Hard Drive card for M2 / 12/16 with a M3 Bus out .

I found the documentation of HD 5MB and 8MB that thes cards sends an HDBRQ signal in PIN 46 (not 45 as on a diagram) that M1, M3, M4 do not use !!!!

In addition all the lines of data, addressings and commands are loaded by networks SIL 220/330 Ohms !!!!! What the FredHD does not have !!

As I'm bad in programming, the maximum number of examples to install an HD on an M2

I have to receive from the USA the HD 12Mo documentation. Documentation on the 15 MB and others would be a plus

A+
Pascal

Oui, je recherche le maximum de documentation sur les HD.

Ian m'envoie un carte HD Type 2 pour M2/12/16 avec sortie Bus M3.

Je me suis aperçu les documentation de HD 5Mo et 8Mo que la carte envoie un signal HDBRQ en PIN 46 (et non 45 comme sur un schéma) que les M1,M3,M4 n'utilisent pas!!!!

En plus toutes les lignes de données, d'adressages et de commandes sont chargée par des réseaux SIL 220/330 Ohms!!!!! Ce que ne possède pas la FredHD!!

Comme je suis nul en programmation, le maximum d'exemples pour installer un HD sur un M2

Je dois recevoir des USA la documentation HD 12MB. Une documentation sur le 15 MB et autres serait un plus
 
5MB service manual will give you the pinout. It is the same controller that was used in the 12MB before they switched to the smaller version. They both worked with the type 2 interface. Anything that mentions the 8.4 Meg drive used the type 1 interface, so be sure you're not getting the two interchanged since you did say 5 and 8 meg above.
 
Bonjour,
Between type 5M and 8M, the connector of the card is different. But the identical signals. For the 8M it is HE9 (edge of card) and for the 5M one HE10. The signals appear to have the same outputs in pin number. I have an interface type 1 (8M) and I always find a signal in pin 46.

The PIN 46 signal seems to come out of the WB1100-12 in pin 14 and controls the MFM !!!
Is it used in the Type 2 interface? which has a M3 BUS output ????

If the buffers used with the interface card type 1 are identical on the card type 2, it is normal that the FredHD does not work these are Motorola 8T26 (from the TTL with big consumption to switch). These are the ancestors of the TTL

A+
Pascal

Entre le type 5M et 8M, le connecteur de la carte est différent. Mais les signaux identiques. Pour la 8M c'est HE9 (bord de carte) et pour le 5M un HE10. Les signaux semblent avoir les mêmes sorties en numéro de pin. J'ai un interface type 1 (8M) et je trouve toujours un signal en pin 46.

Le signal en PIN 46 semble sortir du WB1100-12 en pin 14 et commande le MFM!!!
Est-il utiliser dans l'interface Type 2? qui a une sortie BUS M3????

Si les buffers utilisés avec la carte interface type 1 sont identiques sur la carte type 2, il est normal que la FredHD ne fonctionne pas ce sont des Motorola 8T26 (de la TTL avec des grosses consommations pour basculer). Ce sont les ancêtres des TTL
 
Pascal, the 8MB drive's signals are different from the 5MB drive's signals. Frank Durda IV, who knows more about these machines than anyone else, since he worked on them as part of Tandy, has a page listing some of the differences at http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html
The 8-meg service manual is available at http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/doc/8-Meg_Hard_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual.pdf and the 5MB service manual is at http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkr...5-Meg_Hard_Disk_Service_Manual_1982_Tandy.pdf

In the 8-meg service manual, look at pages 25 and 26 (PDF page numbers, not printed page numbers) for the controller schematic, and compare to pages 67-70 (PDF page numbers, not physical page numbers) in the 5MB service manual. Note the differences, especially that the 5MB drive has all the even pins grounded (the 8MB controller, on the other hand, has all of the odd pins grounded; the signals, other than the resistor packs, seem to be similar, though). The 5MB drive and the 12MB drive share the same controller; I would love to see a 12MB service manual, though, as it probably has the Type 2 interface's schematics in it.

On the Model 12 service manual side of things, the 6000's service manual is a superset of the 12's; the 6000 uses the same Z80 mainboard the 12 uses, but without the extra 16K of 4116 DRAM chips populated (the traces are there). Otherwise, the mainboard in the 6000 is the same integrated 'cost-reduced' mainboard that is in the Model 12/16B. Now, if pski wants to scan and then we can all verify that those sections in the 6000's SM that match a section in the 12's SM are in fact identical that would be OK, but you don't need the Model 12's Service Manual as long as you have the Tandy 6000's Service Manual, which, again, covers that same mainboard, power supply, drives, video board, and monitor board.
 
lowen said:
Pascal, the 8MB drive's signals are different from the 5MB drive's signals. Frank Durda IV, who knows more about these machines than anyone else, since he worked on them as part of Tandy, has a page listing some of the differences at http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/storage/mfm.html
The 8-meg service manual is available at http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/doc/8-Meg_Hard_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual.pdf and the 5MB service manual is at http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkr...5-Meg_Hard_Disk_Service_Manual_1982_Tandy.pdf

In the 8-meg service manual, look at pages 25 and 26 (PDF page numbers, not printed page numbers) for the controller schematic, and compare to pages 67-70 (PDF page numbers, not physical page numbers) in the 5MB service manual. Note the differences, especially that the 5MB drive has all the even pins grounded (the 8MB controller, on the other hand, has all of the odd pins grounded; the signals, other than the resistor packs, seem to be similar, though). The 5MB drive and the 12MB drive share the same controller; I would love to see a 12MB service manual, though, as it probably has the Type 2 interface's schematics in it.

On the Model 12 service manual side of things, the 6000's service manual is a superset of the 12's; the 6000 uses the same Z80 mainboard the 12 uses, but without the extra 16K of 4116 DRAM chips populated (the traces are there). Otherwise, the mainboard in the 6000 is the same integrated 'cost-reduced' mainboard that is in the Model 12/16B. Now, if pski wants to scan and then we can all verify that those sections in the 6000's SM that match a section in the 12's SM are in fact identical that would be OK, but you don't need the Model 12's Service Manual as long as you have the Tandy 6000's Service Manual, which, again, covers that same mainboard, power supply, drives, video board, and monitor board.
Click to expand...

It's not the difference of cards I'm looking for, but the signals that control these cards. Between J7 for the 5M and P8 for the 8M the signals look identical.
I bought on Ebay the documentation of a 12M disk
HD12MB.jpg HD12M.jpg

I'll do a scan as soon as possible.

If the layout of the Type II card was inside ????.

I'm waiting of Ian card to test with my personal HD 12M, then the FredHD on my M2.

The M12 and M16 can not be found in France. I have all the cards M12 and M16B except the box and the video

A+
Pascal

Ce n'est pas la différence des cartes que je recherche, mais les signaux qui commandent ces cartes. Entre J7 pour la 5M et P8 pour la 8M les signaux me semblent identiques.
J'ai acheté sur Ebay la documentation d'un disque HD 12M
Je ferai un scanne dés que possible.
Si le schéma de la carte Type II était à l'intérieur ????.
J'attends la carte de Ian pour faire des essais avec mon HD 12M personnel, puis la FredHD sur mon M2. Les M12 et M16 étant introuvable en France. J'ai toutes les cartes sauf le boitier et sa vidéo du M12 ou 16B
 
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I have the 12MB hard drive service manual in PDF. File is dated 2004, and I don't recall where I found it. If someone sends me a link, I can upload it.
 
Bonjour,

The schemas are missing from the documentation scan.
(Passage from page 78 to 85)
If I receive the schemas, I will do a scan
There are gerbers of the interface Type II or III, so I can recreate the schema with a lot of patience
A+
Pascal

Bonjour
Il manque les schémas dans le scanne de la documentation.
(Passage de la page 78 à 85)
Si je reçois les schémas, je ferai un scanne
Il y a bien les gerbers de l'interface Type II ou III, donc je peux ainsi recréer le schéma avec beaucoup de patience
 
That's a shame that the schematics are missing from the 12 MB Service Manual. However, AFAIK, the controller in the 5MB drive is identical (the boards even share the same part number) so the schematics from the 5 MB Service Manual should suffice. It's possible there were slight revisions to the board that I have not noticed though. I can do a detailed comparison or provide pics, if needed.
 
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