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Please help with Seagate ST251 data recovery

R

repairthat

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Apr 1, 2007
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I was given an old AST 286 computer to try and recover old data (word docs?) from the harddrive. In my naivety, I assumed I could just plug the old HD into my newish pc. When I opened up the dusty case, I found I was wrong, and was confronted with a type of HD interface I was unfamiliar with.
Taking the HD cage out of the machine, (disconnecting the molex power, and 2 odd ribbon cables) I was able to see identifying stickers which told me it was a seagate ST251 HD.
I'm hoping someone here can point me to a good resource for both an adapter/controller and instructions on making that HD and Controller work in a modern PC (or otherwise recover the needed data.)
I apologize for my lack of knowledge at this point, and hope that the info provided is enough to guide you to guide me! I've obviously got a lot to learn about this.
Thanks in advance.
 

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Thanks for the link, further questions

Thanks for the link, further questions

I've done some preliminary reading of the interface section.
I assume I can't tell from the model if its RLL or MFM, but it sounds like an ESDI controller would be able to interface with either. Is that right?
Also, any good sources for such a device?
 
No the ESDI controller is a whole other ball of wax. The format of the HD was determined by the controller. RLL was a form of compression of FM drives and that was contained in the BIOS of the controller. Your best bet is to use the controller from the AST. In most 286s you had to enter the drive parameters for it to recognise the drive. The controller would then format it. FM or RLL. Reading it would depend on the type of controller. I'm not sure but I believe an old Seagate Disk Manager could handle RLL drives without destroying data. Without an ISA slot you're S.O.O.L.

Lawrence
 
Well, the 251 was an MFM based unit, but, some people hooked them up to an RLL controller to get the extra capacity (hard drive space was VERY expensive back then). As was noted, you'll need something with a 16 bit (most likely) ISA slot and I'll assume that the battery on the AST has gone TU, so, if you can supply the make and model number of the controller the drive was attached to, we should be able to come up with the drive Type number you'll have to enter into the CMOS (after replacing the battery, of course) to get the drive communicating.
 
Wow, Thanks for the responsiveness!

Wow, Thanks for the responsiveness!

I appreciate the help!
I'm not sure of the controller of the AST, I'll pull it tomorrow and get the necessary numbers. I haven't noted what the interface is, but thought I could get the HD and new controller to work on some of the EISA slots, no? (of course if I could use the existing controller, that would save some handy $$)
The plan is to hook it into a regular XP PC for the data transfer, with whatever card will work... Is that feasible? I wasn't thinking of trying to resurrect the AST...
edit - I was wondering if what I'm looking for is not an ESDI format controller, but the other earlier format ST512/406 (or something to that effect?)
 
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I'm with D96 on this one. It's most likely that all you're going to need is a new battery & a setup program to enter the proper drive type. the ST251 was a very common 40Mb MFM drive, and the parameters are very easy to find. Have you been able to access the BIOS setup? A lot of 286-era boxes use a disk-based setup program, so you may need to use a generic setup disk.

--T
 
Ok, the ST251 came in 3 "flavours" (none of them ESDI) and they are as follows;

ST251-0 43MB 5.25" HHT MFM ST412
ST251-1 43MB 5.25" HHT MFM ST412
ST251N-0 43MB 5.25" HHT SCSI1 SE
ST251N-1 43MB 5.25" HHT SCSI1 SE
ST251R-0 62MB 5.25" HHT RLL ST412

The difference between the -0 and the -1 was speed (I think the -0 was 40 mS and the -1 was 28 mS on the MFM series and probably about the same on the SCSI1 series). The RRL only came in the slow version because they were just regular 251s that passed the RLL formatting and, when you're trying to squeeze those extra sectors in, slow is better.

I think you'll find that the controller is just a ST412/506 type (not ST512/406) compatible unit and, when you tell us what it is and we can look up the drive table for it, you'll be good to go when you plug the number into the CMOS.
 
Druid6900 said:
Well, the 251 was an MFM based unit, but, some people hooked them up to an RLL controller to get the extra capacity (hard drive space was VERY expensive back then). As was noted, you'll need something with a 16 bit (most likely) ISA slot and I'll assume that the battery on the AST has gone TU, so, if you can supply the make and model number of the controller the drive was attached to, we should be able to come up with the drive Type number you'll have to enter into the CMOS (after replacing the battery, of course) to get the drive communicating.
Click to expand...

I've taken a closer look at the innards, and have found it to be a WD1003-WA2. Also the bus looks to be a 16 bit ISA. I'm not certain if I have a motherboard that can take that card. I've got a combo manual that details jumper settings for the various cards in the series.... I'm gonna need help with that.

However, assuming I can even fit the card, how do I make it recognized by XP? Where is this battery you mention (I didn't see one on the controller, but I didn't check both sides) and what do you mean by setup disks? I didn't see the WD1003 on Window's HCL, so what do you think my next steps should be?

I expect that I'll have to add the controller manually, using drivers (setup disks?) and the proper jumper settings (and possibly manually having to set IRQs, etc) and then setting the disk size/type manually via BIOS on the HD itself. Then there's the concern of how the data will be displayed and navigable. Will it be recognized as an additional drive in disk manager, could I browse to it?

Again, thanks to all you knowledgable and dedicated folks!
 
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Yeah, you aren't going to find a battery on the controller. No real need for one.
The battery is on the computer motherboard and, depending on how old it is, it will either (most likely) be a "barrel" nicad (somewhere usually near the keyboard connector at the back end of the motherboard) or it will be a round "coin-type" battery in a round holder on the motherboard wherever they could find a place to stick it.

If it's a coin type, then you can just run out and buy another one of the same type (it will say on the battery the type number and there is a good chance that it'll be a CR2032 or some variation of that).

If it's the barrel type of NiCad, then, it most likely it's dead and/or leaking. You can usually clip this out fairly easily without having to remove the board and replace it with a AA battery holder with a 4 pin plug on the end of 2 wires (red and black). This device can be found at most well stocked computer stores. Remember to use ONLY alkaline batteries. There should be a 4 pin header near the barrel battery with + at one end and - at the other. Attach the battery pack to this header and then attach the pack itself to some convenient place on the backplane (it usually comes with a adhesive velcro arrangment).

After you've done all this, put the controller and drive back into the AST, run a generic AT CMOS setup program and find the entry that match the drive parameters. Someone (probably me) will get them for you if you can't find them. Make sure the CMOS entry for the 251 that EXACTLY matches the drive specs, including pre-comp and landing zone.

After that, just hook whatever device you want to output to (floppy, if it doesn't have the right size in the AST for your needs, CD-writer, whatever) and take off the data.

Is that clear enough?
 
progress...

progress...

Hey Druid, thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed solution. I appreciate the help you and the other forum members have been giving me. However, I wonder about alternatives, as I'm not sure of the stability of the AST and even if it powered up, operating it...

I've got a pc that has 3 ISA slots (P2{?} 450mhz, mobo= Tekram P6B40-A4X), and I'm installing a time limited XP SP2 OS with the goal of hooking this controller (& HD) up and being able to use windows explorer to drag and drop between them... However, I don't think it'll be as easy as that, and I look forward to hearing your experiences/thoughts on this...

I'm assuming I'll have to manually configure the controller and HD parameters in the BIOS to even get the hardware recognized... I can probably do that with a little studying/research of irqs, etc.

But what about XP and locating files on the old ST251? Can I use explorer and drag and drop? Is it a waste of time for me to load xp on this? Should I instead be looking to boot some dos type environment and manually copy files to a removable location.
 
XP install went smoothly but the controller card causes a boot and a floppy error code (40) after detecting the ides.
Reading the manual for the WD 1003 WAH card suggests I should disable additional floppy controllers, so I guess I have to disable the onboard floppy ontroller in bios. (or connect it to the WD controller)
There sure are a lot of jumpers on that sucker... I'm gonna document the current settings before I make any changes (if any, I've still got to read up)
Tips appreciated.
Actually the manual had pics and settings for 3 models, so there aren't that many options. Now, what about software? drivers?
 
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updates and more questions

updates and more questions

So I've made a little progress, I'm attaching a pic of the best POST yet. Previously it would hang for a long while after detecting the secondary IDE slave, then give the floppy error.
I've verified the correct (standard) jumper settings on the WDC 1003 WA2, gone into the BIOS settings and disabled the floppy drives, disabled PNP OS, assigned legacy ISA setting to IRQ 10. THe IRQ map I found said that was open for use, but I wasn't sure that I shouldn't use IRQ6 (floppy) or IRQ15 (2nd Hard drive controller (IDE?) instead.) I didn't set a DMA assignment, that could be one of the problems, though I didn't see that in any of the BIOS screens. The POST screen below is what resulted. (Please note that IRQ 10 doesn't appear, nor the controller or ST251 as I can tell.)

But I have further questions:
Where do I enter the drive parameters? How can I verify them (I've read c=820,h=6, s=17)
How can I determine the appropriate IRQs/DRQs for the WDC1003? (The manual doesn't say, just "standard addresses") I think this is where I need some major help, as I can't seem to find anything real.

These are the instructions from the WDC1003RA2 manual...
SOFTWARE INSTALLATION
This section contains instructions for preparing (low level
format, etc.) your operating system to recognize the Western
Digital controller.
1. Insert your system Diagnostic Diskette (or equivalent).
2. Turn on the power
3. Boot diagnostic and select setup option.
4. Set clock etc.
CAUTION
Avoid system damage by consulting your
Technical Reference manual to ensure that your
drive type is supported by your host BIOS drive
tables. Not all AT-compatibles share the same
drive tables as IBM.
5. Select proper drive type. Consult your Technical Reference
Manual for further information on these parameters.
NOTE
Step 6 requires execution of low level formatting. Use of the
IBM Advanced Diagnostic (or similar program for IBMcompatibles)
is necessary since these controllers contain no
on-board Basic Input/Output System (BIOS) ROM.
6. Insert your Advanced Diagnostic diskette and execute
low level Format. Follow instructions in your reference
manual.
7. Insert System Diagnostic Diskette (or equivalent) after
the system finishes the low level format.
8. Load and execute the FDISK and FORMAT programs.
Follow instructions in your reference manual.

I know I don't want to fdisk or format ANYTHING. BUt I wonder about these Diagnostic disks... are they just boot disks? Should I try using something like BartPE (which I think is only supposed to work on XP pcs) and Total Commander or another type of boot disk?
 

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Wouldn't it be infinitely easier to just get an IBM XT and put the drive in there? You could then laplink the contents of the drive to any pc you want.
 
billdeg said:
Wouldn't it be infinitely easier to just get an IBM XT and put the drive in there? You could then laplink the contents of the drive to any pc you want.
Click to expand...

I don't have access to an IBM XT, and if I did, I wouldn't know how to laplink it. Wouldn't I have the same issues as I'm currently having, trying to install it and needing to know parameters? Any thoughts on the stumbling blocks that have arisen on my existing path? I don't understand yet that it is impossible to get these files from XP. Is it? Please realize that you're dealing with someone whose main computer experience has been in the Plug N Play realm, with IDE, and PCI & AGP. :) I don't mind the difficulty if I end up knowing more than I started with, but it would be nice to find a simple way to do this. A buddy of mine suggested I try knoppix live, so I'm downloading an .iso right now to try.
I'm checking old pc repair reference books/A+ study books/internet, etc for info on A) how to manually install legacy cards, B) the settings for the hardware, and C) How I can even get readable (ie .doc, .txt) data from the specific files needed.
 
So, new directions

So, new directions

Not having much luck with my previous attempts, I want to try to draw the data off the booted up AST onto another computer via direct parallel cable connection.
I was able to boot up the AST286 easily (first try, no mods) but I don't have adapters for a DB 15 standard crt monitor cable to serial (or parallel) 25 pin male or female DB output. I do have adapters for the AT keyboard & serial mouse input (I believe), but can't see anything yet. There remains empty a DB 25 formed parallel connector, and an unknown female 9 and 25 pin DB connectors. (Attached are pics to help u understand me.)
Assuming I can then boot successfully and see to the existing OS, I'd like some help with the connecting it directly to a modern PC and accessing and copying files whose names and locations I don't know. Will I need any special programs? Someone mentioned Laplinking it, which I haven't yet researched. Is that something that must be loaded on the old AST?
Thanks in advance.

Edit - Just found this, and it makes me nervous... anyone know what type of display (MDA, CGA, EGA?) is needed for the 9 pin female video connector on the AST or if it will work with a VGA CRT monitor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature
A female 9-pin connector on the same computer may be a video display output: monochrome, CGA, or EGA. Even though these all use the same connector, the displays cannot all be interchanged and monitors or video interfaces may even be damaged if connected to an incompatible device using the same connector.

That same article tells me that I am incorrectly referring to the plug on the CRT, and it's actually a DE15M connector!

Here's further info saying I should be able to use adapters to bring that DE9Fsocket to my DE15M Monitor Cable connector:
http://www.dansdata.com/gz061.htm
The extra wires from the 15 pin plug only carry stuff like monitor ID data, though. There are no real new signal pins; 15-pin VGA isn't even like 80-wire ATA cables with their interleaved earths to reduce crosstalk. Provided the wire and plugs are good enough quality, you can adapt 15-pin VGA back down to 9-pin VGA for transmission and lose nothing but the computer's knowledge of the monitor's specs. (emphasis added by me)

As far as the actual video transmission goes, not a thing has changed since VGA was young. And very little has changed since the first MDA adapters.
 

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