Pentium 4

[hunterjwizzard]

This forum is dedicated to vintage computers.
Pentium 4, Athlon XP, IMac G4, or higher do not belong here!

I disagree.

While the hardware itself is not "vintage", it supports running vintage software natively(without emulation). Most(all?) P4s can run win98 with full driver support, same goes for Athlon XPs. G4s can run OS9 natively. Hardware exists to run software.

Cost is another reason why this hardware should be a part of the discussion. A P4 or Athlon XP system will run win98 natively with full driver support and costs a fraction as much as a P3.

If we talk about these systems now, people can learn about them an invest in them now, and in 10-20 years when they ARE considered truly "vintage", some of us can already have them in our collections. If someone had told me in 2005 when Voodoo5s cost $25 that I might want one some day, I would have picked one up.

Make a list in your head of all the ultra-expensive, sought-after components you've ever wanted but can't afford, now imagine someone talked you in to buying one back when it was obsolete garbage going for pennies on the dollar.

That's why we're talking about P4s, XPs, and G4s today.

 

[Agent Orange]

This forum is dedicated to vintage computers.
Pentium 4, Athlon XP, IMac G4, or higher do not belong here!

Where do they belong then? As time goes by, things tend to gravitate along the "vintage" lines. In other words, take these interests off the forum and it will quickly wither.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Speaking personally, I find that most stuff post-WWW (i.e. 1995) is rather boring. Yes, it's faster, bigger, et cetera, but just not as interesting. Sort of like "Star Trek". The original series was innovative and more than a bit "campy"; I haven't even bothered watching more than an episode or two of the latest series.

But I've seen a lot during my lifetime, so younger people may have a very different perspective.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Speaking personally, I find that most stuff post-WWW (i.e. 1995) is rather boring. Yes, it's faster, bigger, et cetera, but just not as interesting. Sort of like "Star Trek". The original series was innovative and more than a bit "campy"; I haven't even bothered watching more than an episode or two of the latest series.

But I've seen a lot during my lifetime, so younger people may have a very different perspective.

You know, the star trek analogy is incredibly apt, here.

You've got TOS, which was certainly groundbreaking(pre1995 hardware), but limited.

Then you've got TNG, which was successful and has many fans, but lacks the "heart" of the original(Pentium era, AGP, etc).

And then you've got all the latest stuff, which is crap.

Yeah. That describes it pretty well.

 

[VERAULT]

I disagree.

While the hardware itself is not "vintage", it supports running vintage software natively.....

Thats not an argument.... A brand new laptop or pc (state of the art) can run freedos or dosbox ......

Your not playing any sierra titles from the mid 80s on a P4.......

 

[VERAULT]

You've got TOS, which was certainly groundbreaking(pre1995 hardware), but limited.

Oh TOS... So were talking about Atari ST stuff now?? Well at least its really vintage.


STOP USING ACRYONYMS!... ITS THE LANGUAGE OF THE IDIOT.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

Speaking personally, I find that most stuff post-WWW (i.e. 1995) is rather boring. Yes, it's faster, bigger, et cetera, but just not as interesting.

So far as I’m concerned Win32 is pretty much the end of history for desktop computers. It coincides with the death of the last stragglers of the home computer boom of the late 70’s/early 80’s (other than Apple), the decline of the dedicated UNIX workstation hardware market, etc. Once it all turns into people arguing about which is the *canonical* “last good version of Windows” you’ve completely and utterly lost the plot.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Thats not an argument.... A brand new laptop or pc (state of the art) can run freedos or dosbox ......

Your not playing any sierra titles from the mid 80s on a P4.......

Did you miss the part where I said "without emulation"? freedos and dosbox are emulation.

 

[Unknown_K]

I disagree.

While the hardware itself is not "vintage", it supports running vintage software natively(without emulation). Most(all?) P4s can run win98 with full driver support, same goes for Athlon XPs. G4s can run OS9 natively. Hardware exists to run software.

Cost is another reason why this hardware should be a part of the discussion. A P4 or Athlon XP system will run win98 natively with full driver support and costs a fraction as much as a P3.

If we talk about these systems now, people can learn about them an invest in them now, and in 10-20 years when they ARE considered truly "vintage", some of us can already have them in our collections. If someone had told me in 2005 when Voodoo5s cost $25 that I might want one some day, I would have picked one up.

Make a list in your head of all the ultra-expensive, sought-after components you've ever wanted but can't afford, now imagine someone talked you in to buying one back when it was obsolete garbage going for pennies on the dollar.

That's why we're talking about P4s, XPs, and G4s today.

Prices are a moving target.

P4 systems and motherboards were so common a while back nobody wanted them. Ages ago I built a DELL Dimension 8300 from free parts plus a cheap ebay case (remember when USPS was cheap?) and ran it a couple years before retiring it. I still have that machine and in a dozen years I might retro game on it. Around that time, I used to snag parts and whole machines from a recycler. Back then P4's had some value as a cheap desktop and the unwanted machines were the P2/P3 slot 1 Gateway 2000 towers that were everywhere. These days people actually want those Gateway towers, but most were recycled (I saved a couple one of which is a Voodoo 2 SLI machine). So, if you can't afford a P3 these days you can get by using a P4 for Windows 98/ME. Sooner or later even P4's will dry up or get expensive.

Luckily for me the retro bug hit me before most people and I stared snagging cards and machines when they were on the bottom of the inverted bell curve of value, so they were free or close to it. I can't believe people actually pay for a C64 these days because they were free or close to it for a decade or more. Everybody ditching vintage machines on freecycle back in the day had a C64 to pile on you when you were trying to get out the door with something else.

Voodoo 5 5500 prices are insane these days luckily, I kept the box for mine and when I was done with it, I put the card in the box and tossed it on the shelf where it still sits. Over the years I stocked up on the voodoos I used to have and sold and picked up the models I never had either on ebay when they were dirt cheap (Voodoo 3 3500, spare Voodoo 2's, a spare Voodoo 1) or locally (found a Voodoo 4 4500 in a free working "junk" PC) and at the recycler. I wish I would have picked up spares because they are all pricey now.

Everything people used to game on will eventually be worthless and then become wanted and expensive. Some of the hardware people used to do actual work on (high end workstations) will be desirable down the road as well.

 

[EverStaR]

Ho hummm, lots or dribble! You all must be board, build some Machines with all that knowledge! Be doers!

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Sooner or later even P4's will dry up or get expensive.

This is why we are discussing them now, so new comers to the hobby can grab them before that happens.

Luckily for me the retro bug hit me before most people and I stared snagging cards and machines when they were on the bottom of the inverted bell curve of value, so they were free or close to it. I can't believe people actually pay for a C64 these days because they were free or close to it for a decade or more. Everybody ditching vintage machines on freecycle back in the day had a C64 to pile on you when you were trying to get out the door with something else.

Voodoo 5 5500 prices are insane these days luckily, I kept the box for mine and when I was done with it, I put the card in the box and tossed it on the shelf where it still sits. Over the years I stocked up on the voodoos I used to have and sold and picked up the models I never had either on ebay when they were dirt cheap (Voodoo 3 3500, spare Voodoo 2's, a spare Voodoo 1) or locally (found a Voodoo 4 4500 in a free working "junk" PC) and at the recycler. I wish I would have picked up spares because they are all pricey now.

Everything people used to game on will eventually be worthless and then become wanted and expensive. Some of the hardware people used to do actual work on (high end workstations) will be desirable down the road as well.

Right? I even had a voodoo 5 at one point that I threw away because I didn't realize it was valuable. They were probably going for $150 at the time but I didn't check because "its slower than y geforce 2". I kept the geforce 2, and it is presently worthless.

But yeah, I'm doing the same thing with late XP-era hardware right now, trying to get as much of the high-end stuff into my possession as I can because I know it'll just be crazy expensive later and I want backups.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Ho hummm, lots or dribble! You all must be board, build so Machines with all that knowledge!

Hmm. I am bored, since you mention it. I should go finish the machine I built yesterday

 

[Agent Orange]

You know, the star trek analogy is incredibly apt, here.

You've got TOS, which was certainly groundbreaking(pre1995 hardware), but limited.

Then you've got TNG, which was successful and has many fans, but lacks the "heart" of the original(Pentium era, AGP, etc).

And then you've got all the latest stuff, which is crap.

Yeah. That describes it pretty well.

Please, the X7950 and RTX 4090 are not crap. Far from it. Just another evolutionary step in computer species.

 

[Agent Orange]

So far as I’m concerned Win32 is pretty much the end of history for desktop computers. It coincides with the death of the last stragglers of the home computer boom of the late 70’s/early 80’s (other than Apple), the decline of the dedicated UNIX workstation hardware market, etc. Once it all turns into people arguing about which is the *canonical* “last good version of Windows” you’ve completely and utterly lost the plot.

Eudi, you need to drop a curtain between commercial and home computers, especially when it come to OS's. I don't know of any home PC types that used UNIX or ALPHA workstations for general home use.

 

[Unknown_K]

This is why we are discussing them now, so new comers to the hobby can grab them before that happens.



Right? I even had a voodoo 5 at one point that I threw away because I didn't realize it was valuable. They were probably going for $150 at the time but I didn't check because "its slower than y geforce 2". I kept the geforce 2, and it is presently worthless.

But yeah, I'm doing the same thing with late XP-era hardware right now, trying to get as much of the high-end stuff into my possession as I can because I know it'll just be crazy expensive later and I want backups.

Well, I tossed a garbage bag full of DOS game boxes (kept the contents), so I got you beat there.

Geforce 2 and 4 MX cards were made by the millions and are dirt cheap even now. The full gamer cards are worth collecting. GF3 seem to be rare and everyone wants a GF4 AGP since that was the last of the line outside of the GF5 leaf blower.

 

[VERAULT]

Please, the X7950 and RTX 4090 are not crap. Far from it. Just another evolutionary step in computer species.

Ill agree its a step.. Of course it is. But not all advances should be praised.

Well, I tossed a garbage bag full of DOS game boxes (kept the contents),

That was always my method. Never had room for boxes. Even since Nintendo carts. Just manuals flattened boxes in some cases (cutouts in early ones) and manuals.... Later disks and cd's.

Did you miss the part where I said "without emulation"? freedos and dosbox are emulation.

FreeDOS is not emulation. Im not even sure DOS box is either but I really dont know. I know FreeDOS IS NOT emulation. Its an operating system. Either way, the mainstream public WAS NOT RUNNING MS-DOS on a pentium 4 when it came out. Point... MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

 

[VERAULT]

Geforce 2 and 4 MX cards were made by the millions and are dirt cheap even now. The full gamer cards are worth collecting. GF3 seem to be rare and everyone wants a GF4 AGP since that was the last of the line outside of the GF5 leaf blower.

I had the voodoo 2 in sli (not at first but in the end). My first foray into 3D. I loved it. I then bought a pci voodoo3. I loved it too, but the impact was nothing compared to my time with the voodoo 2.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

FreeDOS is not emulation. Im not even sure DOS box is either but I really dont know. I know FreeDOS IS NOT emulation. Its an operating system. Either way, the mainstream public WAS NOT RUNNING MS-DOS on a pentium 4 when it came out. Point... MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

Neither one of them is DOS running on metal, so the point is double-moot

Even if you don't want to call those things emulation, I was talking about windows 98 games anyway. I'd love to see you run 100% of win98 games on a modern windows 11 laptop with hardware-rendering completely out of the box, without using any adons(freedos(edit: not an adon), dosbox, etc) or VMs. Should be funny.

 

[VERAULT]

Pretty sure freedos is an actual OS so not sure what your talking about. IT runs on a f#$cking 5160 XT how can you say its emulation?!?

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Well, I tossed a garbage bag full of DOS game boxes (kept the contents), so I got you beat there.

Oof, yeah. Most of my game boxes miraculously survived whatever bought of depression made me throw out most of my hardware, but I didn't have anything special.

Geforce 2 and 4 MX cards were made by the millions and are dirt cheap even now. The full gamer cards are worth collecting. GF3 seem to be rare and everyone wants a GF4 AGP since that was the last of the line outside of the GF5 leaf blower.

We talking about the Geforce 3 a while ago on this forum and I think the consensus was its collectors driving the price up, not people looking for a serviceable retro AGP gaming card. Good Geforce 4s, the ti 4400 models that are a significant step up, command decently high prices(though not something a typical retro gamer can't afford. Geforce 5 was crap. The 6000s were pretty decent though, and a 6600 goes for a fraction of a ti 4400.