Yikes! my floppy drive!!!

[per]

I was testing the CGA_Comp program today, and all the tests was running fine, however, when I did the Hardware detection, it reported a runtime error durning loading data of the floppy, and then the floppy drive just stopped working! A cold boot won't help, and I guess my drive either has dirty write/read heads or some serious unalginement.

The strange thing is that it worked all fine before this, no problems at all, so I don't think the algiment is the problem.

On POST, the red led flashes as usual while the heads move, the computer makes the usual BEEP, but when it tries to load the floppy, it just spinns, and doesn't move the heads at all.

It's a FH 360K drive or more commonly reffered to as a IBM type 1 Disk Drive.

I would like some advice in what to do.

 

[per]

I can confirm that the drive that served as drive B still works. I did this by moving the cable and the T-Res chip over to the other drive while setting the MoBo switches to 1 drive.

This means that the problem is inside the disk drive.

Additon info: After the program getting the error quit, DOS got a "General disk-read error, Retry, Failure, Ignore?" and then the prompt "the current drive is not valid>".

Therefore I conclude that the read/write heads are dirty because:

1. The failure was triggered durning a disk read from that drive.
2. The disk drive logics work since the drive signal errors to the disk controller.
3. Drive B works.
4. It won't even seek the full track for sector Zero on boot, it just throws me into BASIC after seeking for one second.
5. The drive had no problems before.
6. I'm not sure if the disk drives are ever cleaned before.

 

[chuckcmagee]

Or the track seeking stopped working. Time for the old "move the head manually towards the center of the disk when off and see if it seeks to the outer track when trying to boot" diagnostic trick.

 

[per]

Or the track seeking stopped working. Time for the old "move the head manually towards the center of the disk when off and see if it seeks to the outer track when trying to boot" diagnostic trick.

That did the trick.

Seems like the head sticked when trying to actually read a disk. Maybe I should put som oil in there. Any advices? (like what kind of oil, how mutch and where to put it.)

 

[chuckcmagee]

I hate to do this but " that subject has been covered exhaustively in recent threads in this very forum ".

I do need to play with the search feature on here some more. My brain seems to think that it currently doesn't do a very good job of searching.

 

[chuckcmagee]

Ok, searching around is a pain. I just tried it.

I purchased some thick model train oil. Me and others also think 3-in-1 (light machine oil, penetrating) is a good choice. Wipe well after applying, careful not to get it all over the place (which is why I got that thick stuff ).

 

[per]

I hate to do this but " that subject has been covered exhaustively in recent threads in this very forum ".

I do need to play with the search feature on here some more. My brain seems to think that it currently doesn't do a very good job of searching.

the problem is that words as short as "oil" doesn't work in the search engine. only words with 4 letters or more will work .

 

[mbbrutman]

You should probably clean the rails thoroughly ..

I use a Q-Tip swabbed in 90% (or better) isopropyl rubbing alcohol to clean the rails. Be sure to do the top and bottom of the rails, and move the head assembly by hand so that you can get access to all parts of the rails.

Then I use a light oil that I found at Radio Shack. It comes in a small tube with a needle tip applicator. The oil is very light and features Teflon particles embedded in it. I've been using it for about 5 years now and have not had any problems with dirt accumulation, which is a problem with heavier oils like '3-in-1'.

 

[per]

You should probably clean the rails thoroughly ..

I use a Q-Tip swabbed in 90% (or better) isopropyl rubbing alcohol to clean the rails. Be sure to do the top and bottom of the rails, and move the head assembly by hand so that you can get access to all parts of the rails.

Then I use a light oil that I found at Radio Shack. It comes in a small tube with a needle tip applicator. The oil is very light and features Teflon particles embedded in it. I've been using it for about 5 years now and have not had any problems with dirt accumulation, which is a problem with heavier oils like '3-in-1'.

I got sewmachine oil... That's pretty thin.

I got the drive working just by moving the head by hand a coupple of times, but I don't know for how long until I really need to oil it to keep it working.

 

[per]

I got sewmachine oil... That's pretty thin.

I got the drive working just by moving the head by hand a coupple of times, but I don't know for how long until I really need to oil it to keep it working.

The head assembly just stuck again (on the exact same disk read!).

This time I decided to really clean it. I got some etanol, the bottle of sewmachine oil and a coupple of q-tips.
first I added ethanol to one q-tip, and swiped it across the rails, moved the head and repeated with the other side of the rails. Then I used a dry q-tip to sweap across the rails. The last thing I did was to use oil on one of the q-tip and stroke it across the rails until most of the rails where covered by a thin layer of oil. At last, I moved the head a little.

Boot nr1 (DOS 6.2 disk in drive A, my all purpose usage disk in drive B): Boots to ROM BASIC (my tougths: what :? ...).
Boot nr2 (DOS 6.2 disk in drive A, my all purpose usage disk in drive B): Boots to DOS 6.2 (my tougths: yey :D !).
Boot nr3 (DOS 2.1 disk in drive A, my all purpose usage disk in drive B): Boots to DOS 2.1.

One of the things that surprised me was the sound made by the drive. Instead of the Messo-Forte 'Zak-Zak-Zak' sound it has been making since I got it, it now sounds like a Piano 'Dhok-Dhok-Dhok'. The pitch of the sound fell with move than one and a half octave!!!

 

[Chuck(G)]

This time I decided to really clean it. I got some etanol, the bottle of sewmachine oil and a coupple of q-tips.

I don't like petroleum oil in delicate moving parts. I would clean things off very well and then use a bit of light silicone lubricant. Makes things slippery without attracting dirt or creating a viscous mess.

If you have to use oil, I'd suggest some "ultra pure" lamp oil, which is basically white kerosene (or paraffin oil). Sewing machine oil is about SAE 5, which is too thick for this kind of application. If you know a trumpet player, you could also borrow some of his/her valve oil (brass players tend to use very light oils as valve lube) or try some watch oil.

 

[chuckcmagee]

That's a very strong YES on attracting dirt. I just put some 3-in-1 on a 5.25 floppy center hub bearing. It was already getting cruddy after 30 minutes. I went in there with some kleenex and sopped most of it up. Mike's teflon particle one actually sounds the best to me. My extra gooey model train lube also attracts dirt like there's no tomorrow.

 

[patscc]

Test

Test

Just grab a piece of plastic & a piece of metal & treat with your proposed lubricant, and let it sit for a while & see how much dust they pickup.
I don't really think the the lubricants used on some drives in the first place were really designed for the job to begin with.
There's also now Teflon-based dry wax lubricants, like http://www.netmercury.net/dupontteflonmulti-usedrywaxlubricant-4ozsqueezebottle.aspx
which seem to work well for some stuff and don't attract grit the way oil does. (If you bicycle, Pedro's has a foaming wax lube that's great for chains, but this is certainly off-topic)
patscc

 

[chuckcmagee]

<Bowing> That does indeed look like the winning ticket. Appears I will have to work on purchasing some soon.

Good, Amazon had some, I hate adding those stupid web customer accounts! Like you can ever remember your user-id, password in 3 weeks.

 

[Chuck(G)]

There's also now Teflon-based dry wax lubricants, like http://www.netmercury.net/dupontteflonmulti-usedrywaxlubricant-4ozsqueezebottle.aspx
which seem to work well for some stuff and don't attract grit the way oil does. (If you bicycle, Pedro's has a foaming wax lube that's great for chains, but this is certainly off-topic)
patscc

Pat, I've got some of the Dupont stuff; it's great for chains and the like (I use it on my garage door opener chain drive), but it does have a waxy sort of body--I wouldn't use it for small parts (or as a lubricant for locks). It doesn't pick up dirt, but is a bit too heavy for use on disk drives.

 

[per]

I don't like petroleum oil in delicate moving parts. I would clean things off very well and then use a bit of light silicone lubricant. Makes things slippery without attracting dirt or creating a viscous mess.

If you have to use oil, I'd suggest some "ultra pure" lamp oil, which is basically white kerosene (or paraffin oil). Sewing machine oil is about SAE 5, which is too thick for this kind of application. If you know a trumpet player, you could also borrow some of his/her valve oil (brass players tend to use very light oils as valve lube) or try some watch oil.

Why didn't you tell before?

 

[vwestlife]

Considering how many years or decades floppy drives run without the need for any cleaning or lubriaction, all this debate about which type of oil to use is a bit overkill, IMO. If you use the "wrong" oil, all that it'll mean is that you'll need to clean and relubricate the drive in only 10 years from now, instead of 20 years.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Considering how many years or decades floppy drives run without the need for any cleaning or lubriaction, all this debate about which type of oil to use is a bit overkill, IMO. If you use the "wrong" oil, all that it'll mean is that you'll need to clean and relubricate the drive in only 10 years from now, instead of 20 years.

I beg to differ. Given the way most drives are packaged (in the CPU box with the fan sucking dirty air in through the drive slot), things are going to get dirty in a hurry if oil is used.

However, I wonder if any lubrication is needed. The head carriage slides on polished metal rails (some drives even have these chromium-plated) with plastic guides, so there's no metal-to-metal contact. I've got one or two drives where a nylon sleeve is used to improve the action. It's pretty apparent that explicit lubrication was never intended.

Does the maintenance manual for this particular drive even recommend lubrication of the carriage rails? I can envision that a drive kept in hostile (i.e. corrosive or very dirty) conditions might have some damage to the rails or slides that might be temporarily helped by a lubricant. It would seem that the long-term fix is to get things squeaky clean and smooth.

 

[per]

I beg to differ. Given the way most drives are packaged (in the CPU box with the fan sucking dirty air in through the drive slot), things are going to get dirty in a hurry if oil is used.

It's an IBM XT... There is no CPU fan...

 

[patscc]

fans & oil

fans & oil

per said...It's an IBM XT... There is no CPU fan...
No, but the PSU has a fan that certainly sucks air through the case.
It's usually not the CPU fan, but rather the case and/or CPU fan that's responsible for most of the dust in the floppy area.

Chuck(G) said...It would seem that the long-term fix is to get things squeaky clean and smooth
Often you'll notice when you've removed the rails & given everything a good cleaning, the head will move a lot better then with the old, gunked up grease.

Chuck(G) also said...but is a bit too heavy for use on disk drives

That's why I suggested testing your lubricant of choice to see how happy you are with it.
I like it for some drives's rails, but I wouldn't use it as a spindle lubricant.
Different folks have different criteria for what makes something 'good', so get a couple of different ones & try them out. You can always take it apart & clean it again if something doesn't work.
Lubricants also fulfill the function of keeping stuff from binding, compensating for the play that develops between parts from use, and so on. I really don't think there's the perfect lube for all applications anyway, so play around.
patscc
(...except for white lithium grease. White lithium is just plain eveil...)