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Model 4 Nightmare

Knuckledragger

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
58
Location
Presently located=Palmdale,CA. From-Huntville,Alab
I finally got a chance to grab a Model 4 at a price I was comfortable with; it arrived Friday afternoon via UPS. It was a complete 64K system with a load of software. Unfortunately as my luck would have it the BROAD I bought it from packed the computer in a box on top of a stack of the brown Tandy software binders and then filled in the void with the numerous books and manuals that came with it and paper. The outer leading edge of the keyboard on the case is demolished and even missing a couple of the broken pieces. They must have come out during shipping as there was a rip in the box. It is also missing the RED Reset Key completely. When I power it on I get a screen full of horizontal and diagonal lines running through the screen. Actually there are FIVE brighter lines running across the top of the entire width of the screen. Then there are SEVEN lines running downward diagonally below the top FIVE from right to left at about a 15 degree angle with SEVEN fainter lines that run horizontally across the screen and intersect from point to point with the brighter diagonal lines. To add to that, only the bottom drive shows a power light when you power on but both of the drives are spinning for a second ot two; the only key on the keyboard that is doing anything is the missing RESET KEY which makes the screen flicker when you press it. The brightness wheel on the left underside is working but I don't get anything when I scroll the other one.
I suppose the $64 question is what do I have here? The woman I bought it from said it was working before I bought it; of course they all say that for the most part. It belonged to her father who used it in his business. What is so cruel about it is the fact that the darn thing does not have a scratch on it other than where the case is busted up; other than that I swear it looks like it has never been used. Its white and not discolored and there are no scratches or burns on the screen anywhere. All of the software binders, tapes and discs appear to have been very well cared for which tends to lead me to want to believe her about the thing. I also know that it was running at least 6 or 7 years ago due to the dates on some of the discs the old man had; she said he had been passed for three years now. I have not had time to go through all of the software because there is so much of it on disc, not to mention the 40 or 50 tapes that are there and the fact that I do not have a way to test it now I suppose. I know there is something definitely wrong here. I am simply wondering if it could be something minor that could have happened during shipping or did the broad see me coming and was just pulling my leg. I am not proud of it but I went against my own practice and rushed into it and bought it off the eBay place site unseen other than the photos. Using eBay as a reference for the stuff I have seen sold I am thinking I may be able to get most of my money back selling off the software and books and manuals. But that could take a while. Does anybody have an idea if something fixable :(could have happened during the shipping process and have you ever seen lines like those on a screen? Any comments at all would be greatly appreciated. I already feel like a total nimrod for buying something I could not see; I call it having a case of the Gomer Pyles; I suppose it is like my old grandpa used to say, about the fool rushing in. That’s me I suppose. Cheers to all.
 
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It worked once.

What you have is a challenge. For the cosmetics, plastic can be repaired; missing pieces can be replaced with some fiberglass cloth and auto body filler and a coat of paint hides all sins. Be grateful that you can get any display at all.

As far as the electronics, you'll have to pull it apart and see if the PCB was damaged. If so, even that can be repaired.

If you've never done electronics repair, you can learn.
 
If it came in UPS and was broken in shipping, it should be insured. Contact UPS.

If it was purchased via eBay and PayPal, get your money back. I've never had much success with a UPS damage claim on stuff like this. Their usual response is "bad shipper packaging", which certainly seems to be the case.
 
Why not give her the benefit of the doubt, stop beating yourself up, and move on from there. Unfortunately, even if it's packed as well as possible stuff (especially a box like that) gets damaged in shipping all the time; most of us have felt that disappointment when we open the box and see the damage. How was it shipped BTW?

Open it up and see if anything obvious (connectors, ICs, PC boards etc.) has come loose or fallen/broken off; maybe post a few pictures as well.
 
A lot of us have received vintage computers that were damaged in shipping. If you file a claim with eBay, they may require you to return the item to the seller with YOU paying the return shipping charges. When this happens to me, I look to see if there are any usable parts worth keeping. Most computers I have bought from eBay didn't come with anything but a power cord. If you got a good deal on the Model 4, all the extras that came with it may warrant just keeping the computer without filing a claim and look for another.

Just this month I bought a Tandy CM-1 monitor off eBay. When I received it, the seller had put it in a box with the rear of the monitor facing down with no packing. The only packing in the box was some brown paper taped to the front of the unit. Of course, the case was broken when I received it. I opened the case to see if there were any parts that were loose that could cause a short or any other damage. Looked OK, but when I powered up the monitor, it started make loud arcing sounds. It was obvious that the monitor was a total loss. Fortunately, the seller refunded the cost including shipping.
 
You have two choices, as I see it, file a claim with FeeBay (usually, if they have sufficient pictures of the unit and packing, they won't require you to return it, especially if the seller doesn't want it back). If you have to return it, you can usually recoup that cost as well, since you shouldn't be out any money.

It may well be that the CRT socket board has come partially off the CRT pins or the video cables have come off the connectors to the motherboard.

The drives sound like they are operating correctly.

The second choice is to recover the money and get it repaired.

I have a complete keyboard unit and a complete casetop including the CRT and video board.

Don't try taking the unit apart until you get complete instructions on how to do it as you may cause more damage.
 
Hi, you really need to put up some pictures so we can see what we're dealing with here. Sounds like a new top-case including video board, and a keyboard and your computer will be back up and running. Here's a quick test you can do with the machine in its current state... check through your disks for one marked TRSDOS 1.3 Power up your computer and attempt boot of your 1.3 disk, if the drive lights go #0, then #1, then no lights for a couple of seconds, then back to #0 then thats pretty conclusive that the motherboard, FDC and disk drive (#0 in any case) are OK. At this point TRSDOS 1.3 is probably waiting for the date to be put in... so type 11/11/11 <Enter>, now its waiting for the time, but you can just press <Enter>. All going well, TRSDOS is now waiting for a command, do maybe type DIR <Enter> and if the computer seems to responding to inputs then its probably OK.

The description you say above sounds like the standard Raster screen you get if you turn the contrast up too high - and its a good sign, chances are your CRT has survived the ordeal.

Must be just a crap-shoot whether the seller knows how to pack a M3/4 or not... recently I imported from the US 2 M4s, a M3, a 4P and a 4D - only one was slightly damaged due to poor packing for the trip from the seller to my international freight forwarding terminal; and even that one was well packed, it had just had a serious jarr during transit. I have another bunch of similar machines coming soon, this thread makes me wonder how many will be damaged due to seller ineptitude before they even make it out of the USA.

Ian.
 
I'm losing count how many times I'm hearing this story now.
The model II, III, and IV systems seem to have become one of the most impossible to ship computers I have ever heard of.
 
Good day to all,
I want to say thanks for all of the inputs and advice I have received on this subject. I got around to informing the lady I bought it from and she did contact me back. She told me about hurting her back and that her sister helped her finish packing it all up. She said she was sorry and that she was going to check with UPS on a claim. But I have heard the same thing I have read here about getting anything out of them on it. The truth is she threw it in a used thin cardboard box buy laying some of the binders on bottom and then placing the Model 4 in on top. Then I guess she filled in the void with some of the other stuff of which there is a ton of like tapes, plastic Tandy 5.25 Disc cases, vinyl ones, Payroll software, VisiCalc, a slew of books, spare ink cartridges, oh hell it goes on and on and on, like me I suppose. Anyway, I found your site Ian and that is so cool. In fact I read your whole site; especially the one about the one for sale that you decided that by the time you spent all of the time to trouble shoot it and the fix it that it was not worth it to you and decided to part with it for parts or whatever. I may have paid too much for all of it but again I am drawing on what I have seen some things go for on eBay and I could sell some of the software, books and accessories off and get some of my money back. I have seen those plastic Tandy Disc boxes go for $20 on eBay and I think I have three of those now. Right now I have $300 in all of it. I also thought I could part out the computer. The Disc drives and such have to be worth something. They are powering on fine. The top portion of the case is trashed; the bottom half is OK but I suppose that is not worth anything unless somebody just absolutely needed a bottom half. That brings to mind a thought I have had since this started; I have seen a couple of Model 4 MOBOS for sale and then it says “GENTLY REMOVED FROM WORKING SYSTEM.” If it was a complete working system why would you tear it down? I just don’t get that; I’m sorry but I just don’t. I realize in some cases you have to take parts from two or three to get one good working one. This stuff is sort of like the old man told the gentleman that was looking to buy a piece of property that the old man owned. They met and walked around the property and the when they stopped for a rest the gentleman told the old man that he loved what he had seen so far and asked how much the old man thought he wanted for it. The old man took a piece of paper from his pocket and handed the gentleman the piece of paper; on it was the price he wanted for the property; the gentleman looked at the paper and then said,” that’s sort of high isn't it old man?" The old man bent down and scooped up a handful of dirt from the ground they were standing on and stretched his hand out and asked the gentleman, "you know what that is sonny?" The gentleman replied in an agitated voice; “yea old man its dirt.” The old man grinned at him and said, "yea you’re right it is, and guess what, GOD ain't making any more of it HOSS" and walked off. That is an actual true story I witnessed back on a hilltop outside of Birmingham, Alabama about 20 yrs ago. I was roofing the old man’s house; the property the fellow wanted to buy was adjacent to the old man’s house. It was at a time when small lots on that particular hill had started selling for $150,000 and were going like hot cakes to the young beautiful people with six figure jobs who were buying them to build a four-five hundred thousand dollar house on. I tend to think of these Tandy parts in the same way, GOD isn’t making any more of it.
Anyway, I suppose I will sit in the saddle until I hear something from the seller. I am thinking that unless it is as Druid6900 wrote that I could get money back with out having to return all of it then I will probably have to bite the bullet on the Model 4 itself at least partially due to the fact that I do not want to let the software, books and all the other neat little supplies and gadgets go back. I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY that I will find a collection of manuals and software like this that has been this well taken care of. The old man that owned it was meticulous to say the least. Every disc has a little note with it with dates and such and most have command notes for loading it. He obviously knew what he was doing. I am not the guy that runs across stuff like that in original unopened packages and such.
Again I want to THANK each and everyone who has took the time to offer a suggestion, help or simply a different take on the subject. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise. I will see if I can take some PICS and then if I can figure out how to post them I will do that. As I said the first time a couple of weeks ago, this forum thing is all very new to me but I am learning and you just can’t put a price on that can you now? I was wondering about something else though; does anybody know if you can still buy DRAMS to upgrade the memory for these things? I know the Model 4 can be upgraded to 128K but you have to remove a shunt in there on the board and replace it with another little part. I read that the 4D only requires the eight additional DRAMS to boost it up. I was wondering if you had a partially bad MOBO could you take the eight from it and place them in another Model 4 or Model 4D. Its just an idea I had. Well I suppose I need to give my old pie hole a break and do some more reading up on all of this.Cheers to all.
 
I'm losing count how many times I'm hearing this story now.
The model II, III, and IV systems seem to have become one of the most impossible to ship computers I have ever heard of.

Well, I've never shipped a Model II, but, I've shipped a number of IIIs and 4s and they made it without a scratch. You just have to know the logistics of packing them right.
 
I've added some info on packing Model IIIs and 4s to my web site. I suggest you forward this to anyone contemplating shipping a 3 or 4 prior to them packing it. Bear in mind because of the type of box and packing materials needed the seller may ask for additional $ to cover costs. In my opinion thats cheap insurance that a machine will arrive in one piece.

http://ianmav.customer.netspace.net.au/trs80/

Ian.
 
Useful info for those shipping these beast Ian,

I recently was sent a TRS-80 Model 4 by Bill Degen (billdeg). The box was dented and bashed and looked like it had an adventurous journey. Luckily Bill had packed it well. It was fine.

Tez
 
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