A few questions about IBM PCs, I'm new at this...

[Tr3vor]

Sup, I just found this forum.

I have no experience with PCs older than my Pentium MMX computer. A few months back, I found the Youtube channel for Phreakindee, or Lazy Game Reviews, and that got me really interested in DOS. So, I've been messing around with the dos mode on my windows 98 computer and tried a bunch of games, and thought that they were really facinating.
So, now I have a lot of interest in getting an IBM PC or XT
I'm sort of interested in the PC because it has a cassette port on it and it uses the same pinout as this TRS-80 Tape player I have here, And I like playing around on Basic, because I have some MC-10 computer. It would be really neat to be able to program on a PC.

Now I have a few questions concerning these computers, and lets ignore the cassette player port when the questions are answered.

1) How much should I expect to pay for an Ibm pc or xt? I know the LGR video of the ibm 5150 says around 80$ for a complete system, but I look on ebay and its much more expensive than that, and its 2012 now, so the demand could have changed.

2) how much would a CGA Card that has composite out cost? I'm not expecting to get a monitor right off the bat, but I want a computer that I can use, so I need to get one of these if it doesn't come with the computer.

3) What's the difference between the PC and the XT besides the included HDD? are HDDs compatable with the PC?

4) Are there any issues with any model of PC or XT that I should know about? Is there something specific that I should look out for?

5) Can I use a 3 1/2" floppy drive, either 720k or 1.44MB on one, as my Pentium computer doesn't have a 5.25" drive?

6) how reliable are the HDDs, if taken care of properly, do they really just lock up and die?

That's all I can think of right now. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Also I would like to know if there is a cga monitor plug to VGA adapter and how much that costs if its real.

 

[barythrin]

Hm.. the prices vary quite a bit depending where you look and whether it's tested and known working condition. Where abouts are you located? Finding one locally would save you quite a bit vs the cost of shipping. A lot of time you can find one that would fit your need already (video card will be in the system already, but yes you'd need to check if it supports composite if you're looking to use it on a video in device you already own). I wouldn't think you'd need to pay more than $150 for a complete system although I do seem to see more expensive systems on ebay..but it varies depending on features and included software/hardware. One thing to do is search local craigslists around your area.

I don't think the PC had support for a hard drive w/o a bios upgrade but I'm not sure if it can use one just with a hard drive controller being installed or if that requires the newer BIOS as well.

There are plenty of working old hard drives but yes, not being used often they can end up seizing up or if they haven't been treated well or parked the read head and plop down on the platter and cause issues over the time it's traveled. The best thing is just to have someone show you that the system boots and works, or one of the xt-ide cards will let you use common IDE drives in your vintage computer as well.

 

[Stone]

I don't think the PC had support for a hard drive w/o a bios upgrade but I'm not sure if it can use one just with a hard drive controller being installed or if that requires the newer BIOS as well.

I don't think the PC's BIOS has anything to do with it. The BIOS on the HD controller does all the work. The PC doesn't know or care if there's an HD or not.

 

[DOS lives on!!]

Didn't the 5150 not have a hard drive because the power supply wasn't powerful enought to handle one?

A good, properly maintained hard drive will last a long time. The one in my 5160 is still running. They had an expected life of a few years, so any functionality is a gift.

 

[Tr3vor]

I'm in the middle of nowhere, which is twin falls Idaho. There really arnt too much computer craigslist ads, except for people wanting 1000$ for a pentium 4 computer with a 9800gt, those morons...

I'll might have to look into one of those ide cards too, since those older wierd drives are so expensive.

also, is there a difference between a 5150 and a 5150 xt, or when the people on ebay say 5150 xt, do they mean a 5160?

 

[DOS lives on!!]

Don't go with CL or Ebay, they're prices are far too high. Search through the forum's "Vintage Computer Items For Sale" section and see if anything interests you.

 

[per]

1) How much should I expect to pay for an Ibm pc or xt? I know the LGR video of the ibm 5150 says around 80$ for a complete system, but I look on ebay and its much more expensive than that, and its 2012 now, so the demand could have changed.

It depends a lot on the situation of the market. The best way is problably to ask people you know if they have one laying around in the attic or something.

2) how much would a CGA Card that has composite out cost? I'm not expecting to get a monitor right off the bat, but I want a computer that I can use, so I need to get one of these if it doesn't come with the computer.

Again, it depends a lot. When I was active buying all kinds of various ISA cards, I generally had my personal limit at $20, but that was years ago so I have no idea if it still is relevant.

3) What's the difference between the PC and the XT besides the included HDD? are HDDs compatable with the PC?

Not really much. The XT (IBM 5160) has 8 expansion slots and allows for a more flexible memory configuration, while the PC (IBM 5150) only has 5 expansion slots and a memory configuration locked to only 4 options (either from 16-64KB or 64-256KB). On the other hand, the PC has a casette interface, allthough nothing besides the buildt-in BASIC interepter uses it.

4) Are there any issues with any model of PC or XT that I should know about? Is there something specific that I should look out for?

The early versions of the PC (the ones with 16-64KB RAM on the motherboard, made before 1983) may have one of the two early versions of the BIOS. These two versions only recognizes up to 544KB of RAM (instead of up to the full 640KB), and they don't support BIOS extension ROMs. Such BIOS extensions are used on EGA/VGA video cards and many disk controllers.

Also, the very first XTs made during 1983 may be prone to some glitches. They did change the design rigth before 1984, by adding U90 and doing some other small timing-related tweaks.

Finally, you should be aware that you must use an PC/XT compatible keyboard. Some (especially older) AT-compatible keyboards will either manually or automatically switch to PC/XT mode, but most more recent AT-compatible keyboards won't. Both the AT-compatible and PC/XT-compatible keyboards uses a DIN-5 plug.

5) Can I use a 3 1/2" floppy drive, either 720k or 1.44MB on one, as my Pentium computer doesn't have a 5.25" drive?

You can use 720KB 3.5" disks, but you will need to use a more recent one-chip floppy disk drive controller, or you can just use a third-party controller with 3 1/2" support and it's own BIOS extension. To get 1.44MB disks to work with the floppy controllers without any BIOS extension, you will need to load an overlay-driver.

6) how reliable are the HDDs, if taken care of properly, do they really just lock up and die?

It depends a lot. If you move them without parking the heads, then you may very likely damage the disk surface, but some drives just die due to age. Various issues ranges from disk surface falling off the disk platters and sticking to the R/W heads, stiff spindle motor, IC failure, etc... Some drives, like the ones used in the very first PC ATs, were known to fail more often than other drives.

EDIT: Also I would like to know if there is a cga monitor plug to VGA adapter and how much that costs if its real.

The best option is in most cases to use a VGA card that supports 8-bit mode. These cards may well have a 16-bit ISA connector, but they'll still work with only the 8-bit part plugged in. CGA to VGA adapters exist, but they are generally quite expensive, even the ones of lesser quality.

 

[Tr3vor]

The best option is in most cases to use a VGA card that supports 8-bit mode. These cards may well have a 16-bit ISA connector, but they'll still work with only the 8-bit part plugged in. CGA to VGA adapters exist, but they are generally quite expensive, even the ones of lesser quality.

would that support those games with that modified text mode, like that round 42? My pentium computer won't display that properly on its vga card.

 

[VileR]

would that support those games with that modified text mode, like that round 42? My pentium computer won't display that properly on its vga card.

that depends on the card... backward CGA compatibility is often horrible on VGA cards, and tweaked text-mode games aren't the only victims: there are other register tricks that are peculiar to CGA. However, some early VGAs specifically aimed at better compatibility, and often did a good job, more or less (by providing special compatibility modes, toggled either in hardware or software).

fellow poster Trixter has written a utility that comprehensively tests just how well your VGA can pull off all the weird CGA stuff. And for the benefit of the wary buyer (i.e. you ) - some helpful testers on another forum have taken up the challenge and used it to test a few cards. See here: the first post has the detailed results for each VGA tested (and a link to the test utility).

 

[Tiberian Fiend]

Personally, I would buy a late 486 or early P1 with DOS drivers installed so I could play later DOS games without having to buy another computer, but you should at least consider an AT or other 286 so you have 16-bit slots for compatibility--it'll make your life a lot easier.

As for CGA compatability, I'd recommend a CGA card with a composite monitor, but there are CGA-VGA adapter boards out there geared towards arcade use. I haven't tried one myself, but I believe other users here have had luck with them. Here's a link to one of many on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HD-GAME-CGA-EGA-YUV-VGA-CONVERTER-GBS-8220-adaper-cable-NEW-ARCADE-Video-NEW-/180747211414?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item2a155f9296

 

[Tr3vor]

I already have a Pentium computer With Windows 98 and a IDE HDD with DOS 6.22 on it. That motherboard also has 3 16-bit ISA slots on it, So I pretty much got the later dos games covered with that. all I need for it is a Sound Blaster 16 or something like that for sound on dos, since my cheapo pci sound card doesn't work in dos.

I'm sort of looking for something slower than that, and the IBM pc/xt looks nice. Also, my 2nd grade teacher had 4 of those XTs I think, 2 with monocrhome monitors and 2 with color monitors, I remember spending lots of recesses in the classroom playing some of those weird old games. I guess its a bit of nostalgia I guess. I am only 18, but I've still had some memorable times with those kinds of computers.

Also I tried that CGA compatibility tester program, and that was interesting. I like all those weird tester/diagnostics type programs. Anyway, my S3 ViRGE failed miserably pretty much.

 

[reenigne]

2) how much would a CGA Card that has composite out cost? I'm not expecting to get a monitor right off the bat, but I want a computer that I can use, so I need to get one of these if it doesn't come with the computer.

There's one on eBay now for $58.52 shipped but look around - I found one there for $20.49 shipped last year. The composite output works great for games (especially ones which take advantage of NTSC artifacting to increase the number of colours) but the resolution is somewhat lacking - 80 column text is barely legible.

 

[Tiberian Fiend]

The first computers I ever worked on were the XT's I rebuilt for my 8th grade class, so I understand the appeal. I've considered buying one for myself, but I realize wouldn't ever do anything with it but look at it. My Deskpro 286 does everything an XT does, only it's a lot cheaper and easier to find parts for, and it's compatible with more programs/hardware.

 

[Ole Juul]

I already have a Pentium computer With Windows 98 and a IDE HDD with DOS 6.22 on it. That motherboard also has 3 16-bit ISA slots on it, So I pretty much got the later dos games covered with that. all I need for it is a Sound Blaster 16 or something like that for sound on dos, since my cheapo pci sound card doesn't work in dos.

That's the machine you need as a "tweener". When you get an XT or PC you will want to write 5.25 floppies and having an "in between" machine for making bootable disks is very handy. Put an old drive in it and you're off to the races.

 

[westveld]

I've had good luck with the local computer recycler - not sure how common those types of businesses are, though.
Also you might try any local businesses that have been around for a long time.
A business that was around in the 80s may still have a pile of XTs in the basement they forgot about.

If you decide to buy something not local (like ebay) let me know - I can likely put together something for you at similar cost out of the PCs and XTs I have in stock

 

[Tr3vor]

I had to use a Dell Latitude of mine for the USB support, it made floppies for my Pentium. Now I got a Network Card for that sort of stuff, so I wouldn't have to go from USB to 3 1/2 to 5.25. That would be fun, not.

@westveld: I'll keep that in mind if I go with online purchase. It might be a few months before I do though.

 

[Stone]

I just picked up a coupla' usb 3.5" floppy drives so I don't need to turn on another older, networked machine every time I need a floppy of something older.

 

[Chromedome45]

Hey tr3vor where are you located at?

 

[Maverick1978]

Hey, Trevor, and welcome to the forum!

Personally, I'm with Tiberian Fiend - you would probably be better off with a 286-level computer. But with that said, there are other options. If you're space-constrained, Tandy 1000HX/EX are nice machines. The HX has 720kb 3.5" floppy drives, while the EX has 360kb 5.25" drives. These are all-in-one computers, so you would only need a monitor to go with. Just make sure that it comes with a memory expansion for the full 640kb, and someone could make a Plus connector to allow you to run an XT-IDE in there for a hard drive. Of course there are big-box options for the Tandy series as well - Chomedome45 has a nice Tandy 1000 SX with an XT-IDE v1 in it on eBay right now with a starting price of $35 (less than the price of the components for the XT-IDE on its own)

If you go for IBM, and decide to go with classic monitors, bear in mind that you don't necessarily have to get an IBM 5151 monochrome or 5153 CGA monitor. Technically, you can get a PCjr monitor, clip the Berg connector, and rewire it for CGA (or build an adapter). There are also many other TTL-level monitors out there which will support CGA, including the Magnavox Pro 80 models, Commodore 1084 series, and of course the highly sought-after Nec Multisync / Multisync II / Mulisync 3D. The latter have the distinction of working as monochrome/CGA/EGA/VGA/15.7khz arcade monitors as well (this being the main reason that they're sought-after)

If you get a 5150/5160, make sure to check out Modem7's website at minuszerodegrees.net to learn the various methods of actually getting data to your machine.

Also, don't discount Craigslist, eBay, or Freecycle as viable options. Machines pop up all the time, and not necessarily at high prices... starting bids do tend to vary from seller to seller, and searchtempest.com is a great way to search multiple Craigslists within a certain radius of your ZIP code at once.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[Stone]

I've still got a Multisync clone, (Forefront MTS-9600) available for $100 plus shipping which runs from $50 - $80 as these monsters weigh in at roughly 40 lbs. This is the *only* monitor I have on my workbench -- for obvious reasons.