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Best OS for a PDP 11/03 with RX01

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kb2syd

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So, I'm messing around with my 11/03. What would be the best OS for this machine. Currently I have 8KW RAM. I have an additional 64KW on the way. The only mass storage I have is the RX01 currently.

Once I have the best OS to mess with, are there any good tutorials? I haven't used a PDP 11 before, so am quite worthless without an associated tutorial or reference.

Thanks,
Kelly
 
RT11 would be the most popular around here. That would give you plenty of help, and there's lots of documentation available to download. Also, TCP and FTP software packages exist for connection to more modern networks if that's the way you want to go. I'm pretty sure an RX01 [dual drive?] is big enough to begin with, but a better mass storage solution would open your options up quite a bit.

I'm not sure what software limitations you're going to run into with that CPU, but there are likely to be some. [I.E. - some programming languages require Floating Point or CIS] It will be important to know precisely which CPU and options you have. Both M7064 [QUAD] and M7270 [DUAL] CPUs were used in "03" systems and themselves had options. From your comment about 8K ram, I suspect you may have an M7064 module?

I do not know which versions of UNIX are supportable on that hardware, but I think it's likely there is one - albeit an ancient one.

As I said, the addition of more mass storage to your system will significantly broaden it's horizons. However, early small systems could have very limited power supplies so I would check into what power you have to spare, before installing any new hardware, even that 64k memory board you bought.

What bootstrap / terminator does your system have? - Just curious.


Good luck and have fun.
 
RSX11M+ said:
What bootstrap / terminator does your system have? - Just curious.
Click to expand...
Here is the current inventory:
Code: 
M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1
M7940    : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async)
M7944    : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM
M7946    : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller
M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator
M7264    :quad wide 11/03 with 4k MOS RAM
This all appears to be mounted in a BA11-M chassis, bu I will have to confirm this. I'll check the power rating on the tab too.
 
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Is this the system that came from the 11/780? Are you going to get a BDV11 with boot roms from Dave? What model number is the backplane?

-Glen
 
Yes, this is the one from the 11/780. I'm going to get a bdv11 from Dave. I don't know the backplane model, but based on what I read, it is a BA11-M chassis. I'll verify tonight. If you look at this picture of a 780 http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/mas/vax11-780opn.jpg the unit in the lower left is what I have.

I have verified that it is an H780 power supply. +5V@18A, +12V@3.5 Max combined DC power not to exceed 120W.

There are currently 3 open "slots" or 1 quad and 2 double. If I remove the 9400YE I would have 2 quat slots open. DEC part number on the "chassis" is PDP 11/03-A and 2 U high. That matches with the BA11-M chassis.
 
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I have also verified that it is the BA11-M chassis. What contemporary mass storage options are there for this unit?
 
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf
PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook
Page 88, BA11-M EXPANSION BOX
Page 116, BDV11 DIAGNOSTIC, BOOTSTAP, TERMINATOR (M8012)
Page 211, DLV11 SERIAL LINE UNIT (M7940)
Page 217, DLV11-E ASYNCHRONOUS LINE INTERFACE (M8017)
Page 266, H9270 BACKPLANE
Page 459, RXV11 FLOPPY DISK OPTION (M7946)

One limitation with H9270 backplane is that it only a 4 row backplane. If you install a quad wide M7264 11/03 in the first row, a quad wide M8012 BDV11 in the last row, a dual wide 32KW memory board, a dual wide async board, then you only have room left for two dual wide cards, or only one quad wide card.

If you already have a dual wide M7946 RXV11 RX01 controller and an RX01 drive and you install that then you only have one dual wide slot left. That would rule out using a quad wide M8061 RLV12 RL02 controller at the same time.

-Glen
 
I guess I won't be able to do anything really "usable" with this but I still want to get it running. I can do with only one serial card. If I installed the BDV11 I would have one open dual wide slot. No room for an RLV12 controller, if I could find the drive.

I onyl have one RX01 drive so I don't even have a lot of space with what I do have. Are there any OEM or hobbyist storage options for this type of PDP that would only take the dual slot? I can't seem to find any, but I may not be using the right terms in the Google.
 
The most obvious choices for mass storage contollers are an M7555 RQDX3 MFM floppy and hard drive controller or a 3rd party SCSI controller such as a CMD CQD-200 or CQD-220.

A RQDX3 controller by itself should be cheaper, but then it would take some work to deal with the cabling to the drive(s). It might also take some work to get boot roms setup.

A CMD SCSI controller would be more expensive ($100 ballpark on eBay) but it would make some things easier to deal with.
 
gslick said:
A RQDX3 controller by itself should be cheaper, but then it would take some work to deal with the cabling to the drive(s). It might also take some work to get boot roms setup.
Click to expand...
Do these work with any MFM drive? I see the cabling, and while complex, it is not as bad as some I've had to make. I see these for $75.

gslick said:
A CMD SCSI controller would be more expensive ($100 ballpark on eBay) but it would make some things easier to deal with.
Click to expand...
Do these work with any SCSI II drive, or are the limited in what they will work with? Right now more like $175 on eBay, but that is just right now.
 
The easiest way to use an M7555 RQDX3 controller is in a BA23 chassis which has a built in signal distribution board for connecting the cables between the controller and the drives, or in a BA123 chassis with an M9058 signal distribution board. You can use an M9058 in other chassis, but the connectors for the drive cables exit on the bottom side of the board and I’m not sure if it would physically fit in your backplane with room for a board underneath it. You could pick up an M9058 signal distribution board for around $25.

This webpage describes one way to make your own signal distribution board for an M7555 RQDX3 controller:
http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080409.html

One thing that would be nice about having an M7555 RQDX3 controller is that you could use a 5.25” 1.2MB floppy drive such as a TEAC FD-55GFR as an RX33 equivalent for removable storage. As far as MFM hard drives go your best bet is a drive equivalent to a standard DEC RD drive such as an ST-225 (RD31) or ST-251-1 (RD32). Non-standard drives can take some work to format correctly.

$75 for an M7555 RQDX3 controller on eBay isn’t crazy expensive but you could probably find people offering one up for around half that if you asked on the lists.

Recently four CMD CQD-220/TM sold for $125 each on eBay. That is a fairly reasonable price for eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260955941745

You could probably pick one up or an earlier model CMD CQD-200/TM for somewhat less than that if you ask around. One of the nice things with those is that you can use them with some SCSI CD-ROM drives. If I want to run the XXDP diagnostics I usually boot them from a CD in a SCSI CD-ROM drive.

-Glen
 
I have been a big RQDX3 user for a long time. Recently though, I too gave the CQD-220 a try. It is outstanding. It is very fast and very versatile.

In an old PC chassis, I put RX33s (through a teac FC-1), RX23s (through another FC-1), scsi Zip 100, 512 byte/sector CD rom, and an RZ25. They all can work at the same time! It is really great to have XXDP on a zip disk. Even RT-11 runs fast off the zip disk! I did not buy one of the $125 units, but I think they are probably worth it for what they do.

Lou
 
gslick said:
...
One thing that would be nice about having an M7555 RQDX3 controller is that you could use a 5.25” 1.2MB floppy drive such as a TEAC FD-55GFR as an RX33 equivalent for removable storage. As far as MFM hard drives go your best bet is a drive equivalent to a standard DEC RD drive such as an ST-225 (RD31) or ST-251-1 (RD32). Non-standard drives can take some work to format correctly.

$75 for an M7555 RQDX3 controller on eBay isn’t crazy expensive but you could probably find people offering one up for around half that if you asked on the lists.
Click to expand...
They are quite nice... I heard from a friend back in the day that with the correct firmware, an RQDX3 can do RX23's - is that true?

gslick said:
Recently four CMD CQD-220/TM sold for $125 each on eBay. That is a fairly reasonable price for eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260955941745
Click to expand...

:) got 2 !!

gslick said:
You could probably pick one up or an earlier model CMD CQD-200/TM for somewhat less than that if you ask around. One of the nice things with those is that you can use them with some SCSI CD-ROM drives. If I want to run the XXDP diagnostics I usually boot them from a CD in a SCSI CD-ROM drive.

-Glen
Click to expand...

Are we certain these controllers will work on 18-bit QBUS with an unmapped CPU?

I didn't want to suggest it for fear of it not working in his configuration.

If you get pressed for chassis space or power capacity, I would consider trying to buy a DLV11-J [aka DLVJ1] to replace your DLV11 and DLV11-E. The DLV11-J is a 4 SLU card in a DUAL slot form factor, and can be configured to provide Console, and TU58 ports, in addition to two others at very low power. Remember to get a cabinet kit.

Gee, we're full of good ideas, eh? Always happy to help you spend your money.

Two other obvious questions are going to follow this discussion, so I may as well ask now...

  • Anyone know where there are bargains on low mileage SCSI drives?
  • What SCSI tape units are compatible with the CMD CQD-220/TM? [I.E. TK-70 or any 9-Track R2R?]
 
Are we certain these controllers will work on 18-bit QBUS with an unmapped CPU?
Click to expand...

Excellent question. I think you would be safe with the CQD-220 if configured properly for the CPU and backplane:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cmd/CQD-220_CQD-223_Nov90.pdf
CQD-220 CQD-223
HIGH PERFORMANCE Q-BUS SYNC/ASYNC SCSI HOST ADAPTER USER'S MANUAL

3.2.2 18 or 22 Bit Address Selection
The CQD-220 is factory configured to 22 bit addressing which is
used in systems with the MicroVAX, LSI-11/23/53/73/83/93
processors. Twenty-two bit addressing can cause problems if
the CQD-220 is installed in a 22-bit backplane with the LSI-
11/2 processor (which was not designed for a 22 bit backplane).
The LSI-11/2 processor brings some of its test points out on
the extra access lines.

If a LSI-11/2 processor is used with the CQD-220, configure the
board to 18 bits by removing jumper W9. See Figure 1 for jumper
block locations.
W9 IN 22-Bit addressing (factory)
OUT 18-Bit addressing

What SCSI tape units are compatible with the CMD CQD-220/TM? [I.E. TK-70 or any 9-Track R2R?]
Click to expand...

I have used EXB-8200 8mm drives and those usually seem to work well. I have installed 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape using the CQD-220/TM and EXB-8200 combination. (My 9-track drives are Pertec interfaced with a QT-13, and I won't touch TK-50/70 drives).

-Glen
 
Thanks Glen.

I'd add a note that even if you are installing a CMD board in an 18-bit backplane, it's probably a good idea to configure the card for 18-bit anyway.

Thoughts on the RQDX3 and 18-bit 11/02 compatibility?? I see in the documentation that it can do 16, 18 and 22 bit DMA, but that's not exactly the same thing as bus compatibility.


Don't like the streaming tapes? I have no choice, I have too much archived on them and on 9-track tape [written via TE16] so I need the capability to transfer them to more modern media. I have several TK50 drives, so I should be good there, but I was hoping there would be a 9-track "MU: device compatible" SCSI drive.

My alternative is to work on my TSV05. Fortunately, I have both UNIBUS and QBUS controllers for it.
 
RSX11M+ said:
If you get pressed for chassis space or power capacity, I would consider trying to buy a DLV11-J [aka DLVJ1] to replace your DLV11 and DLV11-E. The DLV11-J is a 4 SLU card in a DUAL slot form factor, and can be configured to provide Console, and TU58 ports, in addition to two others at very low power. Remember to get a cabinet kit.
Click to expand...
Is this the same as the M8043, and why the heck are there so many names/part numbers for these boards. What is a cabinet kit? Does that plug into the 4 headers on the DLV11-J and break it out into 4 serial ports? I already have something at home for this from another rescue.
 
kb2syd said:
Is this the same as the M8043, and why the heck are there so many names/part numbers for these boards. What is a cabinet kit? Does that plug into the 4 headers on the DLV11-J and break it out into 4 serial ports? I already have something at home for this from another rescue.
Click to expand...

Your question is quite understandable. Back in the day, DEC realized there was so much confusion over the various versions that they renamed the DLV11-J to DLVJ1 to end it. The reasons are historical, but had more to do with the evolution of LSI ICs that got cheaper over time, faster, handled more and more serial ports while taking less and less real estate and power. During this same period, the applicability of computers exploded and serial interfaces were the medium of choice. The Single Port boards fell by the wayside as vestigial artifacts of an earlier age - giving way to 4, 8 and 16 port versions. Unfortunately or not, their part designations were inherited to the point of confusion. Personally, I don't think DEC expected the PDP-11 to succeed over such a long period of time and the line performed beyond their wildest expectations - or they'd have planned these things better at the outset.

I should add that the DL's all had the same software interface, and were largely able to use the same drivers, despite the variations in capabilities. DH and DZ types required new drivers.

Yes - A cabinet kit is a cable / adapter designed to connect to a particular DEC module on one end and affix to an enclosure on the other. The M8043 is a DLV11-J [DLVJ1] 4 SLU module, if you have one, then you can re-use it.
 
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Lou - N2MIY said:
I have used RQDX3 in Q18 11/23 (early etch rev M8186) machines in H9273 backplanes with no problem.

Lou
Click to expand...

I think you are fine using the early 16-bit and 18-bit addressing CPUs with 22-bit adapters, as long as you only use an 18-bit backplane. If you use a 22-bit backplane with the early 16-bit and 18-bit addressing CPUs the CPU signals on BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 or DC1, DD1, DE1, DF1 will be bussed to the 22-bit adapters and conflict with the adapter usage as BDAL18-21.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/oemMicronotes.pdf
uNOTE #005, Q22 Compatible Options, 23-Apr-84
Any device which uses backplane pins BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 or DC1, DD1, DE1, DF1 for purposes then than BDAL18-21 is electrically incompatible with the 22-bit bus and may not be used without modification.
M7264 KD11-F LSI-11 (16-bit addressing only) uses DC1, DB1, DE1, DF1 for purposes other than BDAL18-21
M7270 KD11-HA LSI-11/2 (16-bit addressing only) uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for purposes other than BDAL18-21
M8186 KDF11-A LSI-11/23 Prior to etch rev. C (18-bit addressing only) uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for purposes other than BDAL18-21

-Glen
 
Glen,

Yes, you are correct all around (which is why I mentioned the etch rev and backplane part number). If Kelly has an H9273 (the original 11/03 backplane) he too could use an RQDX3.

Lou
 
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