The MikeS Ban

[deathshadow]

As someone who's been repeatedly banned from a great many forums, it just goes with daring to have opinions or mannerisms that differ from the staff's norms. I saw this first hand when I spent a decade as administrator of a gaming website where there were certain people the moderation staff (had sufficient traffic to warrant some dozen and a half moderators) were just WAITING to ban from their first post -- NOT because the post was offensive, abrasive, or even against the rules, but because it burst the bubble of their perfect little world.

I saw this on a certain web development forum some time ago where you DARED to disagree with the staff on how to make websites or JOE FORBID give a negative review about any of the books the site was shilling for, you could expect a ban within five minutes of hitting "post" no matter how politely you worded it or if it violated the rules or not.

But it gets worse when you have that situation in place with the moderators just WAITING for someone to cross the line, and then something minor and petty comes along as "the final straw". It truly feels petty and it leaves the people who saw it (like many responders in this thread so far) scratching their heads going "waittaminute, WHAT?!?"

I mean I've been banned for a story where I mentioned being in court and seeing two cases in a row for the same offense, where the first person got a slap on the wrist, the second got 90 days; I referred to the second person with their pants around their ankles, kept putting their hat on no matter how many times the bailiff told them to take it off, saying "Yo You Majisty, this shit is whack" as a "wigger". Laughably they called it a racial slur; I for one was unaware they constituted a race unto themselves.

Or the ban I got for using words that ignorant halfwits don't even know; Hell the wife of a game store tried to have me banned as a kid because I was in the plastic model section looking at a F-4 Phantom II and said "Oooh, this one's got retards!" - her husband (a Vietnam vet) had a good laugh over that one since he knew what a retarded bomb was. It's why I now refuse to use a niggard hand with my language.

But far too many times, calling bullshit on bullshit posts seems to be all it takes to get banned; there's this limp, soft, namby pamby "If you can't say anything nice" attitude that you come across repeatedly certain places that I generally find more offensive than an entire diatribe filled with profanities. It's usually just a lame excuse to maintain the status quo

Simple fact is different people have different opinions, and we all come from different societal norms and social classes. That means what's acceptable to some of us IS going to offend others; I constantly get from west coast metrosexual wussies "You wouldn't talk that way to my face, would you?" -- Apparently they've never been to New England. Ya gaht a freeking problem wid dat?!?

In that way, it comes down to tolerance; I don't think people realize just how tolerant a person I am -- given that what most people get their panties in a knot over doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as the status quo mentality behind said kneejerk reactions. If I actually lost it the way some people do over the occasional foul word over the things I found offensive (religion and faith for example) I'd be a total shut-in or in prison.

But to be fair, I've got the 80's businessman, military DI and New Hampshire Yankee mix in spades... I tell you how I see it and to HELL with if it offends anyone. That's how you make things BETTER as anything else is silent complacency... and silent complacency is the true originator of Edmunde Burkes "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

"No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world." -- John Keating.

Anyone saying you can't use certain words or express certain ideas is probably NOT on the side of good.

But bans happen, out of intolerance, misunderstandings, ignorance, or worst of all, a total lack of empathy for a viewpoint differing from your own. I've seen the last of those cropping up far, FAR too often the past six or seven years.

Though I've often wondered if the mods and admins here's bung-hole puckers every time I make a post given I know that outside New England my mannerisms might seem odd, the same way your typical tofu eating west coast pansy can be brought to tears working in any office in Massachusetts in under five minutes by how bosses there treat people.

 

[PeterNC]

Try NY.

 

[luvit]

As a side note, at least one of those is currently a regular member here again. Maybe behaving better than before?

The direction of your message is clear. I only see one other ban for MikeS and that one unban. -- That first ban (link) I mention was meant to be a permanent ban, not a cool-down temporary ban.
So there was that one unban, but we're told there was a banning unbanning cycle which got quite old.

Lastly, all 3 of those accounts you quoted me on are in a ban status. Did that member you mention have opportunity to create a 2nd account on VCF?

 

[gslick]

The direction of your message is clear.

I didn't really have any particular direction here, just an observation.

Lastly, all 3 of those accounts you quoted me on are in a ban status.
Did that member you mention have opportunity to create a 2nd account on VCF?

It appears that the second account currently being used in this case was actually created prior to the account that was banned. Maybe they were both in use for a while and now only one is after the other got banned. Interesting loophole. Again, just an observation, not saying anything should be done.

 

[Great Hierophant]

Running a popular forum is usually no different than work. You have to act as admin, tech support and webmaster. You have to watch out for spam, for people trying to hack your forum, updates to forum software. Being a moderator is often a thankless task but someone has to do it. How often does a moderator get thanked for shutting down a thread before the flames spin out of control? How often do people congratulate him for banning a persistently difficult member?

I have no more right to post here than anyone else who has posted other than mbbrutman and Erik, despite any contributions I have made to the forum or elsewhere. Its Erik's forum and his site and he could shut it down in an instant. If there have been four bans of members who have had a substantial presence here in ten years, that demonstrates that they do not take banning decisions lightly. It is easy to say "You should tolerate so-and-so, he isn't a bad person" when you enjoy the benefits of the labor of others who are trying to keep this happy ship afloat.

 

[luvit]

In a vintage forum, most all of the members are old enough to experience multiple thankless jobs.
Mine: I grew up on our family's farm, I was in the military, volunteer at volunteer Fire Department & provide IT support, 19years of IT industry, I've been a mod, and now I'm a public school teacher.
I don't look for thanks, I learned not to expect it. I don't think Erik and MB are looking for it either. Usually the thanks are shallow, but when they are genuine it is nice to here.

But the focus is on this past ban. A vandetta. We're all human, mistakes come and go and it happens to members and moderators. Cool-down sessions can work, and some people never forget, never forgive. Like a community, like church, like at work. This past ban was a mistake. Mistakes happen.

 

[Stone]

A vandetta. ... Mistakes happen.

Man, you're not kidding!

 

[Doug G]

For many years I've been a moderator at a "what used to be" busy site. A few years back we got some fairly ban-happy moderators who banned a number of long-time regulars who annoyed them. The site's forum is nearly dead now. Perhaps there is a connection?

In all those years I never banned anyone other than blatant spammers. Many people, and I include myself, find it difficult convey what they mean via the written word, and often send unintended messages in their posts.

 

[Rick Ethridge]

I used to be a co-sysop. Maybe it was because there wasn't much traffic, I only had one "twit" that I "lowered the boom" on. My philosophy is live and let live. I believe, as you do, in the law of diminishing returns. You lay down reasonable ground rules and enforce them reasonably and fairly. I'd do this the same way today. I remember this is for the enthusiast not the religious right.

 

[Unknown_K]

It can go both ways, ban too many people and others leave, don't ban enough people and good people leave. Scammers and people who want to cause trouble (flame wars) need dealt with ASAP. Just because you don't like the person is not a reason to ban somebody. I kind of view it as is you were the CEO of a company, would you fire somebody for what they did or just let it slide.

 

[dave_m]

I for one miss MikeS. He helped a lot of people repair their computers on the commodore forum.
-Dave

 

[Eudimorphodon]

Honestly I miss him too, despite still having in my PM archive a thread that makes it pretty clear that he hates my guts. (For reasons that I don't consider completely fair despite apologizing for them anyway. But it's one of those ugly facts of life that you can't always be friends with everybody; the question is whether it's possible to coexist and extract whatever value you can from the situation despite your differences anyway.) He was quite knowledgeable and helpful... at least outside of "religious conversations", but the less said about those the better.

I'm sure the mods had their reasons for doing what they did but it's a loss nonetheless.

 

[tezza]

Yea. I can't help to feel a bit sad. Mike helped me a lot in the early days, especially with my Commodore PET as did Dave, Eudimorphodon and others. Mike would be the first to admit to a degree of curmudgeonry and I remember having the odd "robust" debate with him. It never got personal though.

I don't know the background to all of this, but I also run a forum and I know that it's not easy sometimes. In the end, whoever owns the forum (and is paying for the server) has the final say. That's their right and I respect it.

Tez

 

[deathshadow]

For many years I've been a moderator at a "what used to be" busy site. A few years back we got some fairly ban-happy moderators who banned a number of long-time regulars who annoyed them. The site's forum is nearly dead now. Perhaps there is a connection?

This might be a wild guess, but if it's the site I SUSPECT it is...

I'm so sure the domain change, switch to a bloated slow turdpress front end, inaccessible change to the forum theme leaving users diving for the zoom only to be confronted with a broken layout, and a general alienation of the user base by development staff for the product who actually takes JOY in slapping down fans of certain factions within a fictional universe has NOTHING to do with that forum dropoff.

Again though, just a guess. That MAY just be the site I was admin at for what, a decade? The one that used to get 1500 new topics and nearly 40k new posts a month -- that now manages about a third that and is dropping like it's in freefall? Where the active membership has dropped from 2000 users to around 300 or so? (despite the ridiculous join figures where 90%+ of the numbers are spammers that are probably driving the moderation staff nutters?)

 

[Agent Orange]

This might be a wild guess, but if it's the site I SUSPECT it is...

I'm so sure the domain change, switch to a bloated slow turdpress front end, inaccessible change to the forum theme leaving users diving for the zoom only to be confronted with a broken layout, and a general alienation of the user base by development staff for the product who actually takes JOY in slapping down fans of certain factions within a fictional universe has NOTHING to do with that forum dropoff.

Again though, just a guess. That MAY just be the site I was admin at for what, a decade? The one that used to get 1500 new topics and nearly 40k new posts a month -- that now manages about a third that and is dropping like it's in freefall? Where the active membership has dropped from 2000 users to around 300 or so? (despite the ridiculous join figures where 90%+ of the numbers are spammers that are probably driving the moderation staff nutters?)

Well, how about a link?

 

[SirThoreth]

For many years I've been a moderator at a "what used to be" busy site. A few years back we got some fairly ban-happy moderators who banned a number of long-time regulars who annoyed them. The site's forum is nearly dead now. Perhaps there is a connection?

In all those years I never banned anyone other than blatant spammers. Many people, and I include myself, find it difficult convey what they mean via the written word, and often send unintended messages in their posts.

Wait a minute...I'm about 4 posts short of being able to send this by PM instead, but you wouldn't happen to be a certain Lootbag Commando with a love for Commodore 64s, would you?

This might be a wild guess, but if it's the site I SUSPECT it is...

I'm so sure the domain change, switch to a bloated slow turdpress front end, inaccessible change to the forum theme leaving users diving for the zoom only to be confronted with a broken layout, and a general alienation of the user base by development staff for the product who actually takes JOY in slapping down fans of certain factions within a fictional universe has NOTHING to do with that forum dropoff.

That's also when updates to the site began to lag heavily.

Again though, just a guess. That MAY just be the site I was admin at for what, a decade? The one that used to get 1500 new topics and nearly 40k new posts a month -- that now manages about a third that and is dropping like it's in freefall? Where the active membership has dropped from 2000 users to around 300 or so? (despite the ridiculous join figures where 90%+ of the numbers are spammers that are probably driving the moderation staff nutters?)

That seems to be about 95% of what all mods do, actually. When I still had my own game forum site, btechunits.com, up, we were just absolutely inundated by spammers, to the point that we probably had about 500-1000 spammers try to register for every one legitimate user.

 

[luvit]

MikeS had some irons in the fire here, like selling S-100 cards. 5 months have passed, so not all deals are still available. If you need gear from MikeS, I can get you in touch with him if you PM me.
Members have chimed-in with hindsight, tolerance, and disagreements of the action. Majority has been neutral (but not uncaring) or against this ban. Hopefully this is still being weighed.

 

[deathshadow]

we were just absolutely inundated by spammers, to the point that we probably had about 500-1000 spammers try to register for every one legitimate user.

That's why I had the forums on the aforementioned site that shall go unnamed tied to http://www.stopforumspam.com/ -- which did a GREAT job... In addition to that I had several hundred IP address ranges dropped at the OS level using ipTables... most of those were data centers since there is no legitimate reason for a server to be trying to log in as a visitor to a forums; said data centers typically being in China, Russia, Ukraine, India, Pakistan and Nigeria. Sure there were a few minor cases from other locations, but those were the 500 pound gorilla's in the room.

India and China in particular were troublesome; I had like two-thirds of China set up as blocked. Doing it at the iptables level was far more reliable than doing it at the forum level since it blocked their ENTIRE access to the server. Many of the addresses blocked not only had forum spam joins, but were also probing SSH, FTP and SMTP looking for other ways in.

Honestly I always thought it was kind-of creepy the sheer volume of server-level attack attempts we underwent over that decade given the site's focus; I really wonder how in the hell their current disastrous turdpress install isn't totally pwned daily -- unless for some magical reason they aren't seeing the same level of attacks. The attacks on my hosting stopped dead too the day we parted ways and that domain wasn't pointed at me anymore.

Though it's a laugh, I just checked the stats that I'm not supposed to still have access to, but I'm not a bastard and don't abuse it and it looks like someone is going through RIGHT now and deleting spam joins; something that doesn't look like it's been done since 2011... which is pretty much when I left. The stopForumSpam plugin still requires manual cleanup -- don't even want to think about how much overhead not having someone there to nursemaid it daily has created.

Since I'm SO sure they had 185 thousand legitimate member joins in 2013... Wonder if the people currently running it saw this thread.

Well, how about a link?

I've said far, FAR too much already -- particularly since the parting of ways wasn't exactly amicable; but I don't want to be a total douche about it -- I leave that to them.

It's bad enough a few people here (like SirTheoreth) likely have deciphered exactly what site I'm talking about.

 

[roflwaffle]

Just.. because I'm famililar with the type.

There are on occation members that are super knowledgeable, yet are totally unreliable for trades/deals.. its a tough situation. You value their snark and opinions on matters, expertise in the field, but as a forum trader they're garbage. On prior forums we met with many other of the type. We enjoy having them around, even if they're kinda rude (or in this case maybe not, but usually are), but are full of knowledge, which adds to the forum..

theres folks that arent great with keeping up with obligations but are knowledgeable. They're also always on, which means feedback for posts. they have a place in online discussion, but have no business being able to handle anyones money.

its a tough line to ban, but good for any forum to make such moves.

@deathshadow - i think we might frequent same forums, your name and writing style ring a bell.. maybe just fluke if you don't use that name elsewhere.

 

[deathshadow]

There are on occation members that are super knowledgeable, yet are totally unreliable for trades/deals.. its a tough situation. You value their snark and opinions on matters, expertise in the field, but as a forum trader they're garbage.

It's why usually I don't do forum trades and when running forums usually delete the trading section and have a rule AGAINST trading on the forums in place. If nothing else you don't need the legal headache of possibly being held liable for enabling a scam or being expected to enforce the transactions.

That said I've had decent luck on this site so far with it -- with two decent even-up trades and one purchase, and of course my ONE sale went off without a hitch -- but I know what you mean. Trust me when you have an official website for a product it gets far, FAR worse particularly if counterfeits are an issue. Miniatures gaming sees this problem ALL the time.

Hell, I've even gotten yelled at for it when I make my own from scratch even though I'm not trying to sell them... Nothing like geting DCMA notices from a company you basically gave a free ride to for a decade.
http://www.deathshadow.com/images/old/minis_Wasp.jpg
http://www.deathshadow.com/images/old/minis_WarhammerPP.jpg
http://www.deathshadow.com/images/old/minis_Warhammer1.jpg
http://www.deathshadow.com/images/old/minis_Rifleman.jpg (note the penny for scale)

@deathshadow - i think we might frequent same forums, your name and writing style ring a bell.. maybe just fluke if you don't use that name elsewhere.

I'm pretty much under this name on every forum I frequent (was legally required to for a while, long story), though the past few months (due to severe health issues, I go in for a 24 hour EEG in... six hours) I've really only been active here and over on DigitalPoint. Most of the other forums I frequented either went under (lovingTech, techTalkin), pissed their own bed to the point of being unusable messes (devshed), I just lost interest in due to a focus shift (OSNews, Pascal Game Developer), or am under active lifetime bans with. (SitePoint, WebDeveloper.com)

The last of which are annoying since it's basically the namby pamby limp wristed "how dare you upset anyone" in action; where it's ok for sleazeballs to lead people down the garden path to failure, but Joe forbid you dare and call them on their scam artist BS. Happens when the lazy sleazeball ****'s and thin skinned twits are the ones running said sites. I said twits, I mean a similar word with a different vowel!

Though I've been far less restrained in my responses since my business partner and sounding board (Dan Schulz -- aka "Albatross") passed away due to self neglect about five years ago, and another partner in crime (Aaron Swartz -- I'd hope you folks know who that was) took his own life two years ago. Growing really tired of friends half my age basically ending their own lives... Usually out of fear, frustration or just plain being sick of dealing with the jackasses. People I talked to for hours every day online sharing ideas, projects and code -- without them I've not just got no paddles on this creek, I've got no rudder either.

That said I'm usually more well behaved here than I am on those sites, because this is a fun place and a hobby, not serious business with people actually asking for help on their businesses. The "status quo" mentality and "If you can't say anything nice" excuses having no business in the workplace, and why most of the fools duped into thinking the scam artists out there are offering them anything of value are doomed to failure in a most epic and spectacular fashion. An attitude nobody wants to hear since they've had so much smoke blown up their backsides you could win a BBQ competition at the local fairgrounds my serving their rump in a styrofoam container.

Which comes back to the trades thing, that turns it into business and that's where things CAN get ugly really fast. REAL ugly and not the lame limp "oh noes he useded naughies wordz" bekaptah chazerei. Something I keep having to remind myself, if you can't say anything nice, say it in Yiddish!