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5151 monitor to CGA-card and weird keyboard (pics included)

Pekopome

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Couldn't figure out why my 5151 monitor didn't work with the 5170 system I just got..

I took the card out and after some Google-ling I found out the card is a CGA-card from 1986..

As you can see, there is two set of switches on the card, and I have no idea how you configure them.. one of the switches is melted, so you cant change the settings.. Is there any way to get it to work with the 5151 monocrome monitor I got with the system?

BTW.. Can any one say if the keyboard in the pictures works with the 5170. I cants get the DIN-5 to fit into the motherboard..

I have included the pictures here:
Gallery
 

Anonymous Coward

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That's not a CGA card. It's an IBM Tokenring network adapter.

You're lucky it's not a CGA card, because you can damage 5151s if you attach them to CGA cards.
 

Pekopome

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OMG im such an idiot.. I thought it was a monitor port.. connected the 5151 to what I thought was the serial port, and that works perfect..:)

Now its only the keyboard jack I cant get to fit into the motherboard.. weird...
 

kishy

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OH I KNOW THIS I KNOW THIS I KNOW THIS!

Your token ring card probably isn't a token ring card...it could be the keyboard card (yes, there is such a thing) from the 3270 PC XT. It uses a DE9 connector to connect to a dongle thing that then plugs into the AT (actually, by design, XT) keyboard plug.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6770
Check that out. Really. I've converted one of those keyboards for PC use and that thread is how you do it.

It is semi-AT compatible, but "Semi" is all it is. The plug is nonstandard, you'll break it if you force it.
The keyboard, by the way, is definitely the 3270 PC keyboard. It has DIP switches. Real terminal keyboards didn't have them.

It is, if anyone cares, derived from the IBM Model F (I make this determination based on the shape of some keys; there are also Model M-derived ones; I have two)
 

IBMMuseum

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That looks like an IBM Point-of-Sale keyboard to me. It might be 5170 compatible, however. What does the tag on the underside say it is?

No, it´s for the 3270-series terminals (probably 3196). The 3270 PC (or 3270 AT) can´t even use those particular keyboards. I had seen the ¨breadboard¨ style 4Mbps Token Ring for microchannel, but not for the PC/XT (but it would have to be, with the DIP configuration switches).
 

kishy

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No, it´s for the 3270-series terminals (probably 3196). The 3270 PC (or 3270 AT) can´t even use those particular keyboards

It sure can be used with later AT-compatibles and PS/2-compatibles; I type on one almost daily (IBM part number 1386887 from 1986, intended for IBM 3179 dumb terminal)
IBM machines though are very picky so I'd be surprised if a real AT could handle it.
 
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IBMMuseum

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OH I KNOW THIS I KNOW THIS I KNOW THIS!

Your token ring card probably isn't a token ring card...it could be the keyboard card (yes, there is such a thing) from the 3270 PC XT. It uses a DE9 connector to connect to a dongle thing that then plugs into the AT (actually, by design, XT) keyboard plug.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6770
Check that out. Really. I've converted one of those keyboards for PC use and that thread is how you do it.

It is semi-AT compatible, but "Semi" is all it is. The plug is nonstandard, you'll break it if you force it.
The keyboard, by the way, is definitely the 3270 PC keyboard. It has DIP switches. Real terminal keyboards didn't have them.

It is, if anyone cares, derived from the IBM Model F (I make this determination based on the shape of some keys; there are also Model M-derived ones; I have two)

Thank You for the thread you started at the other location. I will look through it tonight. Currently I have been working with my 3270 PCs to get them documented.

The keyboard itself can be adjusted, but the right-angle plug is a giveaway that particular connection is for a terminal. 3270 PC keyboards (and those for the 3180 terminals, but the keys are slightly different) have a rotating metal screw assembly to fasten in the socket (and the 3270 PC keyboard dongle has the reverse to mate with it).

The pictured card isn´t the keyboard/timer card either. I know of three versions, and have them personally. The cards will even give a 2801 error if the 3270 emulation adapter isn´t present.

With the later PS/2s there was a ¨Host Connect¨ keyboard that needed no external logic to run a 122-key keyboard. Those models could take an adapted keyboard done correctly. Now, let me look over the thread.
 

kishy

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Thank You for the thread you started at the other location. I will look through it tonight. Currently I have been working with my 3270 PCs to get them documented.

The keyboard itself can be adjusted, but the right-angle plug is a giveaway that particular connection is for a terminal. 3270 PC keyboards (and those for the 3180 terminals, but the keys are slightly different) have a rotating metal screw assembly to fasten in the socket (and the 3270 PC keyboard dongle has the reverse to mate with it).

The pictured card isn´t the keyboard/timer card either. I know of three versions, and have them personally. The cards will even give a 2801 error if the 3270 emulation adapter isn´t present.

With the later PS/2s there was a ¨Host Connect¨ keyboard that needed no external logic to run a 122-key keyboard. Those models could take an adapted keyboard done correctly. Now, let me look over the thread.

It's a LONG thread lol. Have fun...

The original cables on my keyboards were the straight, screw-in plugs. Cords swapped, messed with the pins those DIP switches connect to, some software tweaks and bingo. It couldn't have happened without the help of MANY others though - I don't even think of taking full credit for it.

(going to bed, so won't see me replying again tonight)
 

IBMMuseum

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It's a LONG thread lol. Have fun...

The original cables on my keyboards were the straight, screw-in plugs. Cords swapped, messed with the pins those DIP switches connect to, some software tweaks and bingo. It couldn't have happened without the help of MANY others though - I don't even think of taking full credit for it.

(going to bed, so won't see me replying again tonight)

Despite the wait I will add a little info. I should edit my reply to say the right-angle plugs on the keyboard (and the RJ-45 style) are *designed* for terminals. Your keyboards have a key layout like a 3180 terminal.

3270 PC keyboards are 1389162, PS/2 ¨Host Connect¨ keyboards are 1397000. The diffences are to account for the (non-detachable) cable connection and key layout. FWIW, the switches for the 3270 PC keyboards are all ¨open¨.There are also other models with a black metal base, and no switches that will also work on the 3270 PC and 3180.
 

IBMMuseum

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I do wish I had seen the 122-key keyboard thread on the other forum earlier, as I could have added some relevalent information at the time. Later PS/2s (your 8556 is one) recognize the ¨Host Connect¨ keyboard, but that is because it has a different keyboard ID. Somewhere around here I´ve got notes, or probably easier I can just rerun the tests.

Ultimately the PS/2s that can run it support INT 16h Function 09h (keyboard functionality) - More modern clones could possibly use the same function...

Currently I´m working on other aspects of the 3270 PC with John Elliott. The keyboard is interesting, with other areas such as the display and emulator cards too. For that particular system the keyboard/timer card (and normally there is a dongle that connects things together, John had to come up with his own) maps the additional keys to support it.

Stay tuned, John didn´t have the dongle and only has one version of the keyboard/timer adapter. By luck I´ve got three versions (including the one that John has), three dongles (plus the wiring diagram in the manual that would have made it easier on John), and three complete 3270 PCs with extra parts and manuals. But John does have it documented very well, and that is the reason I am forwarding him the information I am determining with my systems.

Yes, I do have the Host Connect keyboard for PS/2s, a few other units (even from manufacturers like Keytronics, NIB with software) with a 5-pin DIN, etc...

EDIT: Be aware that the late model PS/2s can be intolerant of some KVM designs, maybe because they initialize for the different keyboard models (remember that keyboards go the other way too, with the 84-key ¨Space Saver¨ Model M)...
 
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kishy

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The thing about the host connect boards is...well...they're boring. Lol.
I enjoy somewhat of a challenge, though this was hardly a challenge for me (the 'hard work' parts were done by others, I just implemented them and documented it)

Attached you can find a photo showing the connector that was on my keyboards. It's the "non-right-angle" version with the screw shell.

(worth noting, but you'd have seen it in the thread anyway: InfoWindow II keyboards can do the same conversion, at least the 3488, which is one of the RJ45 ones like you mentioned)

The layout on my keyboards is for a 3179 (both keyboards have a sticker saying 3179 on the bottom, and part number searches reveal they're for a 3179). I imagine then that the 3179 is related to the 3180 but it seems in some capacity they're ALL related to each other.

The black metal base seems to be on the older, Model F-type ones from what I've seen digging around online.

Chuck, it kind of depends on how you define "the keyboard". The layout and keyswitch design, yes for sure, but the electronics I can't comment on because I'm not sure. Assuming the POS system in question was an extension of some kind on the basic design of a dumb terminal, then I'd say it's probably the same as the terminal keyboards of the time.

I figured my 56 would be able to see the host connect board. As you may have seen, it didn't cooperate with the terminal keyboard because of the keyboard ID, which we then changed with jumpers on the DIP switch pins. After that, it was just OS/2 being difficult that caused problems. I've reinstalled Windows 95 since then and forgot to test it...will do later.

KVM? no biggie. I like to live dangerously...hotplug all the way.
(I don't really like taking risks like that, but sometimes it has to be done to further advance a project that may benefit others)
Besides, the PS/2 does boot up with the keyboard connected, it's (I suspect) only software issues at this point.

Indeed, John has done an excellent job. Had his website not been floating around online, I probably would have given up before even starting the keyboard mods.

We've COMPLETELY hijacked this thread.
 

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Pekopome

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We've COMPLETELY hijacked this thread.


Hehe It's ok.. I sorted things out on Google.. It is a terminal keyboard, and for some reason the DIN5 jack is slightly bigger than the normal AT-DIN5..

I have ordered a DIN5-male/miniDIN6-female converter.. So Im just gonna use an old Compaq-PS/2-keyboard to start with..

If any one is interested in the Terminal-Keyboard let me know...
 

IBMMuseum

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The thing about the host connect boards is...well...they're boring. Lol.
I enjoy somewhat of a challenge, though this was hardly a challenge for me (the 'hard work' parts were done by others, I just implemented them and documented it)...

The thing with the keyboard hack on the late model PS/2s is it will probably work just swapping cord and setting the right Keyboard ID (as you have found out), no software needed (with the 101-key Keyboard ID you are telling it your keyboard is that model, then the software is mapping the extra keys extraneously). I just try to get as much idea of how a design was implemented if I can. Sure, before I had things like the keyboard dongle and other parts come into my hands I was backtracking through the keyboard PCBs, I still have my drawings to prove it.

...Attached you can find a photo showing the connector that was on my keyboards. It's the "non-right-angle" version with the screw shell.

(worth noting, but you'd have seen it in the thread anyway: InfoWindow II keyboards can do the same conversion, at least the 3488, which is one of the RJ45 ones like you mentioned).

The layout on my keyboards is for a 3179 (both keyboards have a sticker saying 3179 on the bottom, and part number searches reveal they're for a 3179). I imagine then that the 3179 is related to the 3180 but it seems in some capacity they're ALL related to each other.

The black metal base seems to be on the older, Model F-type ones from what I've seen digging around online...

Although I am not in short supply, I'd almost offer to take the plug with a short amount of cable on it to reuse at this end. I have a good collection of the terminal keyboards (and terminals, so I won't modify everything). Including at least one black metal plate base keyboard that is marked as an 'F' like you say.

I could even think of a reverse project, using the plug to connect a 101-key Model M to a 3180 terminal (it has an 8085 CPU) by changing the Keyboard ID. Of course you lose the particular keys to adjust the terminal preferences. Those 'SETUP', CRT intensity, and even volume adjustment keys are used for the terminal's configuration, and aren't for the PC world.

...I figured my 56 would be able to see the host connect board. As you may have seen, it didn't cooperate with the terminal keyboard because of the keyboard ID, which we then changed with jumpers on the DIP switch pins. After that, it was just OS/2 being difficult that caused problems. I've reinstalled Windows 95 since then and forgot to test it...will do later.

KVM? no biggie. I like to live dangerously...hotplug all the way.
(I don't really like taking risks like that, but sometimes it has to be done to further advance a project that may benefit others)
Besides, the PS/2 does boot up with the keyboard connected, it's (I suspect) only software issues at this point...

Kind of covered above, but as I say I wish I had seen the thread. I knew from my testing that the Host Connect keyboards gave a different Keyboard ID, and could have provided a timely hint (I have software that provides the Keyboard ID, and also shows whether there is 122-key keyboard support in the BIOS). Even for the side comment about Charles Lassiter (whom I have received many IBM parts from, including my PS/2 Host Connect keyboard) finding out that some (probably the RAKs, Rapid Access Keyboards) keyboards wouldn't work on particular IBM systems I could have given comments (it's also related to the Keyboard ID).

...Indeed, John has done an excellent job. Had his website not been floating around online, I probably would have given up before even starting the keyboard mods...

My contact with him has been more closely related to the whole 3270 PC rather than only the keyboard. I'm trying to also get data on the 3270 display adapters (which he has documented just as well) too. As said, the 3270 keyboard is an interesting design and project, on the 3270 PC using an adapter with a BIOS extension to run it (pictures of the keyboard/timer cards I have found can be posted later).

...We've COMPLETELY hijacked this thread.

It happens, usually for the better (IMHO) around here...

EDIT: The "No software needed" comment above should be rephrased as that no software is needed to adjust the system to recognizing the keyboard at a rudimentary level. I recognize in some areas you are referring to the OS being able to use the keyboard and its extra keys. You can view it as I am looking at an older perspective - The 3270 PC would run DOS that doesn't understand there are extra keys, but the 3270 emulation program does.
 
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