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Best and worst vintage computer brands in your opinion?

Well, I lost my aversion to Macs because I'm writing this on one! But that gave me a long-lasting bad impression. I wonder if the 21st Century Steve Jobs would have let the 1984 128K Mac out the door. Maybe there were insurmountable financial pressures. But I do recall Apple saying at the time, "it's not expandable, because it's all that you need". Just. Wow.

I'm pretty sure that Jobs thought he knew what he was doing, even though history has demonstrated that he perhaps didn't. I seem to recall there were a lot of pressures at the time however, to get a Mac model out of the door, and lots of frustrations within the company that he was using revenue from Apple II sales to develop the Mac, which by then was his pet (and only) project.

It was his view that computers should be sealed and not something the user should need to get inside to expand - which might have been a valid standpoint if they were all they needed to be in the first place.

I'm still a Mac user myself, though 4Mb RAM in my Classic is about as little memory as I would like in one these days.
 
When was the last time anyone upgraded the RAM in an iPhone? Nope, just have to throw it away and buy a new one. Jobs knew exactly what he was doing. Being his usual a-hole self. :) If it had been feasible, he probably would have locked down software development too, despite IBM PCs and clones taking off in part because anyone could write whatever they wanted unrestricted and run on an increasingly wide variety of hardware.
 
I wonder if the 21st Century Steve Jobs would have let the 1984 128K Mac out the door.

Yes, he would have. And he did.

It was called the "iPhone". The first model was an absolute magic trick with a very stymied 3rd party development channel. The iPhone was an incredibly slow computer with an OK GPU that made the UI work. But web apps weren't able to leverage that. Like the original Mac, it was a shot in the dark to see where it would land.

I'm pretty sure that Jobs thought he knew what he was doing, even though history has demonstrated that he perhaps didn't.
He had a vision to be sure, I don't think anyone knew what they were doing at this stage. Truly wild west.
It was his view that computers should be sealed and not something the user should need to get inside to expand - which might have been a valid standpoint if they were all they needed to be in the first place.
Computers are awful. They've always been awful. There's a reason the group of folks that "get" computers congregate. I've been dealing with this stuff forever, and I still "hate computers". I never enjoyed the low level arcana back in the day, flipping bit switches, charting interrupts, installing drivers (IN the right order thankyouverymuch). As much as I appreciate the world that such devices lived in, why there were the way they were, doesn't me I enjoyed dealing with them. I'm a bit higher level than that.

The Macintosh was a early attempt to truly get the machines in to the hand of human beings instead of savants. It was absolutely under provisioned at the start. But that was soon remedied, and even starved of RAM the machine made an impact. The Mac Plus was really first, most usable Mac by adding the external storage capability. But they had some foresight when they spec'd RS-422 for the serial ports early on. I don't know if they had planned those for when the Laserwriter showed up, and for Appletalk, or if that just fell in their lap. Appletalk and the Laserwriter were an amazing capability early on. And trivial to set up.

The iMac hit closer to Jobs original goal. USB was a great choice as an expansion capability.

They weren't designing machines for industrial settings, with arcane edge requirements interfacing with who knows what. They were after the 80-90% use cases for most humans who don't give a whit about computers outside of having their word processor load up and print out the document. And, of course, children.
 
Worst however, would be Packard Bell. I don't really have any experience with them, but everyone I know that did have experience, hated them. Many of you may recall that around 1996, this company was sued for incorporating used parts inside their machines and not disclosing that fact, thus leading to NEC acquiring Packard Bell and eventually withdrawing the name from North American shores. Speaking of which, you can still buy a Packard Bell computer in Europe, right?

Worst were Packard Bell, Leading Edge.

Packard Bell is far from the worst.

Wonder where the hatred for Packard Bell is stemming from but to state so much dislike about something you've never owned first hand seems... unfair, if that's the right word. Also, I would encourage you to not make the same mistakes I did when I was younger, taking such strong dislikes (or even sometimes praises) about certain devices/etc. without exploring and researching them for yourself. Take a moment and let me re-emphasize the importance of that. I missed out on a great deal of Apple/Macintosh stuff because I listened to 'others' dislike/distaste for certain brands/operating systems. "Mac Sucks!" or "Apple is stupid!" You have these band camp elite groupies IBM vs. Mac vs. Atari vs Amiga, etc... and while everyone has their weak products, I love them all. I've always disliked how many people treat computer companies like sport teams and you had to be on one side or the other. That logic shouldn't apply to computers and technology but it does. Hell, that even happened recently with the format wars of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Anyways, I would like to hear what exactly it was everyone you knew who experienced them hated so much about them (Packard Bell that is). They certainly weren't cheap machines and were really well built. I lived during the time period of their prime, having used one constantly in 94/95. A few of my friends own the Legends and they were all rock solid and performed well. We'd live on AOL with dial-up (it was nice that they included modems) and do all the BBS'ing and even dial each other up to play some deathmatch Doom.

Packard Bell seemed like one of those brands people just wanted to hate for no real good reason which extended out to those who never even owned one, which is why I question the hate. Looking back I have nothing but fond memories and have recently within the past 4-5 years occasionally looked them up locally to see if I could ever find a decent one for cheap. Sadly most are in poor condition these days, since people treat computers like appliances instead of sacred possessions for collectors to lust over 25 years later lol but some are just downright neglected or abused.

Also nothing wrong with Leading Edge, they just looked kind of funky. I owned an 8088 and it worked fine, just underspecced.

eMachines were hands down the worst ever, crazy to consider those vintage since a friend owned one just 10-years ago as his primary machine. There's a reason they were such short lived and cheap. Didn't help that they would use the worst Intel Celeron processors available either. Painful....
 
My favorite old machines are
- A Digi-Comp I, because I had one as a child: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digi-Comp_I
- A Minivac 601, because this was the first electronic device I used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minivac_601
- A Luxo iMac G4, because it is gorgeous. Also, because my kids kept wedging the Windows machines, and this just kept on working.
- An SGI Indy. I wrote a lot of good software on that. And the startup noise was cheerful and upbeat.
 
As I stated in an earlier reply I think Packard Bell got a bad rep because of the shear volume that were sold. The earlier models were very well built, while the later models did have a problem with cheap plastic stuck on every where. Because PB systems were sold every where (WalMart, etc..) many average Joe's purchased them and then quickly set about destroying them with viruses and tons and tons of shareware. Remember, those same big box stores also offered that "discount" software that was questionable at best. Many of these "broken" systems that came through the computer shop were just trashed by software and easily fixed with a wipe/refresh. However, customers believed it was the low quality of PB systems causing the problems ... you just couldn't tell them otherwise.

Oh, and Leading Edge, yeah, they were pretty bad. Had lots come through the shop with COM and Printer ports that just died. Installed many I/O add on cards to get the ports back. If I remember correctly the DC2010/2011 series didn't play well with 8bit VGA cards either.
 
I've been surprised seeing Packard Bell Pentium 1 desktop machines selling for a couple hundred dollars on eBay - A long time ago I used to have a similar one that was a tad rusty and literally smelled. Did not seem like a desirable machine, but probably did the whatever job it was intended to.

I'd also like to know what the issues were with Leading Edge. I've actually been looking on eBay over the years trying to see if I can find an early non-turbo unit. They were a proprietary form factor, no frills, but as far as I know they had OK compatiblity and were expandable.

I do also think part of the perception may be of machines that were underspeced for the day in which they were sold. For example, I remember hating low-end Tandy 1000 equipment around 1990. Not because the machines were "bad", but because they were still promoting and selling 8088/8086 machines when it was clear everyone was going to require a 386, or at least squeeze by for a while on a 286.
 
I've been surprised seeing Packard Bell Pentium 1 desktop machines selling for a couple hundred dollars on eBay - A long time ago I used to have a similar one that was a tad rusty and literally smelled. Did not seem like a desirable machine, but probably did the whatever job it was intended to.

I'd also like to know what the issues were with Leading Edge. I've actually been looking on eBay over the years trying to see if I can find an early non-turbo unit. They were a proprietary form factor, no frills, but as far as I know they had OK compatiblity and were expandable.

I do also think part of the perception may be of machines that were underspeced for the day in which they were sold. For example, I remember hating low-end Tandy 1000 equipment around 1990. Not because the machines were "bad", but because they were still promoting and selling 8088/8086 machines when it was clear everyone was going to require a 386, or at least squeeze by for a while on a 286.

Back in 1990 the 386SX went for about $1K. A 486SX-33 barebones (case & mobo) from a warehouse behind Chicago O'Hare was about $700 around 1994. After I got the the initial 486 then it was a matter of budgeting for the peripherals. One reason that I hung on to my 1000SX; i.e., I could get online, run WordStar, and print NLQ.
 
AST is usually good: great value and sometimes with CRT + keyboard + mouse (& integrated ESS on MOBO with Pentium PCs).
 
PB is a fine entry level consumer brand. The machines still work fine. Maybe not top performance but that was never the intent. The marketing and value proposition was a very comprehensive desktop (e.g. CD-ROM, sound card + software).
 
Depended on the PB model. PB did use some very cheap non-standard components so planning on their replacement was necessary. Having to prepare to make sure all components were properly placed in sockets and run the burn-in tests that Packard Bell skipped was another drawback. The cacheless Pentium models were awful. The loss of cache did make them cheaper than other Pentium systems but many 486 systems performed better while costing less.
 
My only problem with Packard Bell was when I tried to upgrade my P150 model, there were all kinds of obstructions deliberately placed in the case to prevent someone from getting a hand in there to do anything. I had to dremel off several crossmembers before I could do anything inside it. It was like they put the motherboard inside the case and then riveted a bunch of crossmembers in place to prevent you from ever getting it out.
 
Best "Brands" is not a very good topic as most brands have made good machines and bad machines. But regardless this seems to be more of a Steve Jobs and Packard Bell thread. Here let me comment on the only one of those two talking about.
Packard Bell was a generic, boring, cheap-O brand. But it because my friend bought one (486) It was the first time I ever got to use a new computer. So in that regard I am nostalgic for it. I still remember us going to Sears to buy it. But I have no illusions it was any good. It was just a "good first computer" for him and most people.

Steve Wozniak, may you live to be 139 years old. The one true Steve.. In your name Amen.
 
My first and only OEM machine purchased new was a Packard Bell 286-12 from Sears. The monitor was a crappy .3x dot pitch and the HD was small and slow. After using that a few years I built my own 386DX/40 and built everything since then.

PB spent a lot of time finding the worst components to build a machine from and in later years stuffed used returns into machines sold as new.
 
PB spent a lot of time finding the worst components to build a machine from and in later years stuffed used returns into machines sold as new.

wow sounds just like DELL! I was a service tech for Dell for 5 years in the early 2000's. They would give us used return items, make us put them in a refurbished enveloped and install them into customers computers. Most didn't notice, some people were really upset (with good reason).
 
There's a reason why Commodore and Macintosh repair videos are so popular on YouTube -- because so many of them need repair.

Meanwhile, computers like Ataris and TRS-80s mostly get ignored, because you can't make a half-hour restoration video about a machine the works perfectly the first time you plug it in and turn it on.

And at least around here in NJ, Leading Edge was the favored brand of cheap PC clones, not Packard Bell.
 
Leading Edge was pretty popular around here in Ohio. The thing is you really had 3 different places to buy computers in the 80's and depending on your age and market (home or business) you were presented with different brands.

For example if you went to Kmart , Hills, Sears, etc you tended to see lots of Commodore, Packard Bell, and Leading edge. Radioshack had the Tandy line and those stores were all over the place. And then you had business class resellers who sold the Compaq, TI, IBM, and HP stuff.

By the time you got to the 90's mail order was in full swing (Gateway2000, DELL, and millions of others in Computer Shopper) plus electronics places like Bestbuy, Sun, and the local Appliance stores were selling computers plus some small computer shops selling white box machines.
 
My thoughts on best and worst change around.....I mostly hang out in the realm of x86 IBM Compatibles, but I've messed with Mac stuff some.

First off, my philosophy is there is no "perfect" computer. I've owned over 100 different examples over the last 20 years - Macs, Commodores, IBM Compatibles, Tandy this and that, and they all had some kind of fobile to them. Some like the Commodores I have very limited experience with. Like I said, IBM Compatibles are my mainstay.

My thoughts on Macintosh is that they are very solid, very reliable machines. Their achilles heel is three areas - yellowing/brittle plastics, ease of service on the machines, and generally, making it as usable as an x86 IBM Compatible of the same vintage on a mixed platform network like my own. Sure, I could ultrabrite them, but then I run into the problem of taking the darned thing apart, especially early AIO Macs. I spent a long time early on chasing around a super-long star tip driver to get the cases open, only to resort into a really janky McGyver setup using multiple extensions that were thin enough to actually fit in the holes. Then there's the whole CRT issue on those models, if you're not comfortable discharging CRTs - something I've only very recently gotten used to dealing with - they're not something you'll be very comfortable with upgrading the RAM, replacing batteries, doing board level repairs, and even doing something as mundane as replacing the HDD. Then there's the whole functionality standpoint. Network cards, especially PDS and NuBus, are EXPENSIVE. That's why I have a Mac SE FDHD that has yet to see more than a month a year of usage, because when I find an ethernet equipped PDS card, it'll be over $100, I'll need to get some special driver to remove the back, discharge a CRT, and then take the motherboard out to install the card. If it was an IBM based system, I'd be in and out in 5 minutes. Then there's the whole chicken/egg thing with STuffit that I run into every time......Stuffit comes in a SIT file, which needs Stuffit to "expand". If I don't do it with a SIT File, the Resource Forks - more often than not - get boggled up. IBM? I'd just plop the drivers on a Floppy or a Cd-ROM and install them and be done in like....15 minutes, including card install.

I've owned a LOT of IBM stuff, tons, PS/2s, PC-330s, I've gotten to work with an on the original PC 5150, and XTs, and ATs. I've even used and worked on their late 90's Aptiva stuff - and the famous ThinkPads - which I even hold current Lenovo models in almost as high a regard. To me, they are the best, but they do have their flaws too. The original PC only has 5 slots and used wider slot covers than the other models. The PS/2s can be a real pain if you have hardware in certain ISA models that does not have ADF files for them - like the Ps/2 Model 30 286 I've had 2 of - which I stuck a Diamond TeleCommander 2300 modem/soundcard into, and my god that thing ran great surfing the web via NetTamer and playing DOS games with sound using that setup. Just an annoying error message. The Ps/2 models of course have the achilles heel of being proprietary and hard to get parts for, especially upgrades like soundcards and network cards, and the parts are often expensive. My ThinkPad 755CD was easily on par with my current NEC Versa P/75, and just like the NEC, the 755CD cracked to pieces but kept working the whole time, and I was not hep to all the various chemical tricks we have learned now. Also, today, IBM is BLOODY EXPENSIVE - back when I got those systems, I was paying $5-30 for them. Now tack an extra zero or two onto those prices.

I'm also a HUGE Compaq fan, especially the early Deskpro. But those too are expensive, going for about $200-300 now. But they were probably the most elegant OEM PC design I've ever seen before or since. Modular power cables for all the drives, a set layout for the drives in front, a power supply with a single ribbon, all eight expansion slots, memory cards that were fully 32-bit in the 386 models. I mean, I could run Windows 95 on my 2571 Deskpro 386 - a computer from 1986 that could run an operating system 9 years newer....that's insane good engineering. I also never crashed or hung a Compaq. Heck, the keyboard port was in the front - and being as I was swapping/testing keyboards a lot at the time, those Deskpros were quite handy. Heck, I may still have my Deskpro 286 at my childhood home....not 100% sure though. The Presario CDS models are my second favorite AIO System (next to the IBM EduQuest). And I'd love to own a Compaq laptop, and have toyed with getting one but they are so expensive.

NEC is my newest favorite because they are Compaq/IBM quality currently, at 2001-era prices. The 1st generation Versa (Ultralite/E/V/M/P models) are ALMOST as good as an IBM ThinkPad. Their only achilles heel is the plastic and I've figured that out now because I found out the Backing Soda Superglue trick works on NEC's plastic like practical plastic welding. They run as fast as my best IBM systems - like my PC-330 or PS/Valuepoint machines did. I can still get parts for them as easily as you could a ThinkPad or LTE or Toshiba Sattelite/Tecra from the early 90's, and I have yet to hang any of the four I own (40EC, V/50, M/75, P/75) with software at all. They travel well, you can still get batteries, their power consumption is on par with some cheap modern laptops, and the later models have sound. Also, because of the industrial nature of the screens, getting pinouts and figuring out solutions like upgrading or downgrading your panel is an easy proposition, not to forget to mention that ALL color models were Active Matrix except the V-series. I also have a Ready 9522 Desktop, which despite being made by "Packard Bell" - it seems they used far more upscale components. Unlike the Packard Bells I've had, which are finicky about RAM, Hard Disks, and had a CMOS battery that already melted and ate up the Motherboard traces by 1999, the NEC has a Dallas Clock chip, I stuck in Parity RAM (it only takes NP RAM) and it uses the Parity Chips as a part of the regular memory - so I have 136MB in that computer which is insane for a Pentium 100. About the only bad I can say about it is the Alliance Video chipset is anemic (my 486 DX4-100 desktop with an S3 805 2MB VLB or my Versa P or M/75 eat it for lunch in DOOM Frame rates).

For 286 and older, if I go OEM, another favorite of mine is Tandy. My first PC was a Tandy 1000 SX in 1997 (yes ninetey-seven, not eighty-seven) - and since then I've owned quite a few Tandy machines and all of them have been so solid even the worst issue like a failed chip, would not kill the system completely enough. Right now I have a Tandy 1000A setup that's just killer - Deluxe Mouse, NEC MultiSync monitor, XT-IDE with a 3GB HDD, and it's a sleeper too (dual Floppies). I'm building game pads and a light pen for it eventually. It's also my favorite box for BBS surfing.

The two worst vintage OEM's I've dealt with were a Transitional period Dell 325SX (I got a PC's Limited Branded monochrome VGA monitor with it) and a row of Packard Bell models very popular in East Alabama in the early 90's. And even then, those were not that bad. The #1 problem was that they did not think about where to put the CMOS battery in those machines and so most of them had some ruined traces on the motherboard I either had to bodge back together, or work around with add-in cards. I had one PAckard Bell that lost it's HDD controller due to this, another one that would not POST so I had to hack-in a Zenith motherboard that had the same issue but instead now, the VGA chipset had memory problems. There were a few "Franken-Bells" running around at the time too, like an AST Pentium 60 living in the Dell's LPX case, the Packard Bell Legend 843+ tower with the Zenith motherboard in it that had Ethernet and a replacement ISA SVGA card, or the PBM - A Packard Bell with an IBM PS/Valuepoint board in it. All these had some interesting "redneck mods" to the cases to get the riser cards to fit and work.
 
NEC is my newest favorite because they are Compaq/IBM quality currently, at 2001-era prices. The 1st generation Versa (Ultralite/E/V/M/P models) are ALMOST as good as an IBM ThinkPad. Their only achilles heel is the plastic and I've figured that out now because I found out the Backing Soda Superglue trick works on NEC's plastic like practical plastic welding. They run as fast as my best IBM systems - like my PC-330 or PS/Valuepoint machines did. I can still get parts for them as easily as you could a ThinkPad or LTE or Toshiba Sattelite/Tecra from the early 90's, and I have yet to hang any of the four I own (40EC, V/50, M/75, P/75) with software at all. They travel well, you can still get batteries, their power consumption is on par with some cheap modern laptops, and the later models have sound. Also, because of the industrial nature of the screens, getting pinouts and figuring out solutions like upgrading or downgrading your panel is an easy proposition, not to forget to mention that ALL color models were Active Matrix except the V-series. I also have a Ready 9522 Desktop, which despite being made by "Packard Bell" - it seems they used far more upscale components. Unlike the Packard Bells I've had, which are finicky about RAM, Hard Disks, and had a CMOS battery that already melted and ate up the Motherboard traces by 1999, the NEC has a Dallas Clock chip, I stuck in Parity RAM (it only takes NP RAM) and it uses the Parity Chips as a part of the regular memory - so I have 136MB in that computer which is insane for a Pentium 100. About the only bad I can say about it is the Alliance Video chipset is anemic (my 486 DX4-100 desktop with an S3 805 2MB VLB or my Versa P or M/75 eat it for lunch in DOOM Frame rates).

I too have been completely falling in love with the NECs as well (have been interested with the Versas having the IR ports) and outside of build quality, their design is really nice as well! These are such cool computers, although not for $1,300 currently:

68408648_10220433511770523_6204089218373779456_n.jpg


Maybe someday I'll land just a really nice NEC tower that doesn't have too high of an ask.
 
I like IBM also. MCA is a bear of course. But the ISA/PCI lines are pretty solid. Not top of the line performance but extremely well documented. The one downside is that finding replacement OEM parts / expansions is a bit of a challenge in some cases.
 
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