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Best "starter" CP/M machine? (and looking for KAMAS outliner software)

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MrImprovement

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I have been playing with a Z80 emulator and it's fun to run old programs, but they are still running on my big 16GB RAM laptop...

Is there a recommendation for the best "starter" CP/M machine? It seems that my options are looking on eBay for KayPro or TRS80 Model 4(P); there is possibly a local NorthStar Advantage (I am near Denver, CO).

In my reading I came across the KAMAS outliner software, but I haven't been able to find a working copy - does anyone know anything about this outliner program?
 
MrImprovement said:
I have been playing with a Z80 emulator and it's fun to run old programs, but they are still running on my big 16GB RAM laptop...

Is there a recommendation for the best "starter" CP/M machine? It seems that my options are looking on eBay for KayPro or TRS80 Model 4(P); there is possibly a local NorthStar Advantage (I am near Denver, CO).

In my reading I came across the KAMAS outliner software, but I haven't been able to find a working copy - does anyone know anything about this outliner program?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what the current economics are on this solution, but I found the Apple 2 CP/M environment to be useful, reliable and fast. So, a working //e of almost any ilk, PCPI Applicard (aka MicroPro Starcard) and storage hardware of your choice. You'd need at least a single 5.25" A2 drive (or solid-state equivalent) and literally any ProDOS compatible mass storage device.

And, trust me on this, it's far easy to manage physically than an Advantage. They're great systems (I have two) but are also large, heavy and fragile. Mass storage interface is proprietary and very hard to find if you are lacking it (wasn't shipped in floppy only systems).

Sorry, forgot about KAMAS. I used to scratch my head over their ads in the 80s. It looked interesting, but not so I'd want to sink money into it. Have never run across it in the wild.
 
I’ve got about a dozen Z80 based CP/M systems (SBCs, S100, RC2014, etc.)… but lately I’ve been playing with a tiny eZ80 based CP/M system: Agon light. It’s blazingly fast (18.434 MHz). The developer is working on a faster version called the Agon Heavy that will be 50 MHz!
 
MrImprovement said:
...Is there a recommendation for the best "starter" CP/M machine? ...
Click to expand...
It seems to me that one of the best "starter" CP/M machines would have to be Grant Searle's 9-chip CP/M system. It's pretty simple, and low cost, and comes with a lot of software that you can load onto a CF card. I have found several PCBs for Grant's system, but none of them are exactly what I want.
 
Here are a couple that I'm familiar with (own):

www.tindie.com

SC203 Modular Z180 Computer Kit for RC2014 by Stephen C Cousins on Tindie

Complete kit of parts to build a Z180 computer system designed for RC2014
www.tindie.com www.tindie.com
www.tindie.com

MinZ-U - Z180 System at 33 or 36 MHz with 512 KB by Circle M Systems on Tindie

Z180 System at 33.333 MHz or 36.864 MHz with 512KB RAM and USB for power and serial ports
www.tindie.com www.tindie.com

Re: MinZ, I see there is now a MinZ-C which includes a micro-SD interface. The above two kits have no formal storage (CF, SDCard, disk, etc) but are quite usable as-is because they have 512K FLASH and 512K RAM and have CP/M built-in. Note that these machines have no video interfaces (in contrast to Kayro and TRS80), so you talk to them over a serial port. That means that if you want to run games or screen-oriented software you'll need to run a terminal emulator that matches the capabilities of the software you want to run. They also exclude software written explicitely for the hardware, like TRS80 games would likely be. Both of these "families" (RC2014 and MinZ) have options for expansion or models with more features. There is a huge amount of options for the RC2014 architecture, from CPUs to VGA and game interfaces.
 
I appreciate the comments! The Circle M MinZ-C actually is fascinating to me; seems you could keep it on your person and use it wherever you are. Maybe put it on a lanyard somehow?

The RC2014 I haven't seen in person, so maybe it is smaller than it looks; but by the time you add all the ports and accessories etc. you could have possibly paid the same as for a Kaypro in working condition, and the Kypro is designed to be sturdy and can be closed up easily and stowed.

Still hoping someone who knows KAMAS or can recommend another good outliner, is on the forum also...
 
The retrobrew crowd (https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php) has many options. If you are unable (or unwilling) to build yourself, you can probably find someone over there to do it for you (to join the forum - https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum). There usually are surplus boards around, like previous versions or whatnot. My drawer holds several working units am am willing to part with, but shipping will be about $12.
I have trouble determining what a "best starter" machine would entail, but for me I would go for something like a multicomputer based on Grant Searle's design. They are relatively cheap, hook up to a VGA display and PS/2 keyboard and use SD cards as hard disks. If you want to go really cheap (like $5), there is an AVR based machine using an ATMega88, as envisioned by Takashi Toyoshima. However this machine needs a terminal and simulates a 8080 CPU, but runs CP/M 3.
In case of original vintage systems I think your best bet is one that is designed for CP/M (not as addon) and uses standard (more or less) floppy drives. Also look for a system that can use a CF/SD card or USB-stick disk replacement like a GOTEK drive. Transferring software without something like that can be a real pain. Some systems have support for FAT filesystems, which allows file transfer using floppies, but to utilize this your PC needs to have a floppy drive of the right size and capacity.
Lastly remember that screen control used on CP/M machines can be proprietary or at least system specific. Software usually can be configured for well known systems, but in many cases you will need to provide the correct control codes yourself. It helps if this information is available for the system of your choice.
 
I went with the Amstrad PCWs. They are quirky in that they have a 3" FDD, but you can load in a Gotek and still use the drives as you like. They run CP/M Plus ( 3.0 ) and seem to run a pretty native CP/M. There's also a lot of games for them and they can run Symbos which makes for an interesting windows-like environment.

Most importantly, you can still get an original one for under $100 at times... Though I don't think that will last too long... They are just quirky enough and because they are sold as "Word Processors" - no one seems to know they are CP/M machines... Of course, on the flip side, not everything that runs under CP/M runs on the Amstrads as the video codes seem a little different from some of the terminal codes.
 
One down side of buying an actual retro machine is maintenance. If you are lucky enough to get one that's still running, it is only a matter of time. Even if you get one that's already been thoroughly "re-capped". If you're collecting antiques, then it makes sense to buy retro. But if you are looking for a more-real and tangible CP/M experience you may want consider new hardware. Depending on your budget, there are even some groups that have resurrected retro machines using all-new hardware - such as the SEBHC group's modern rebuilds of the Heathkit H8 (http://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/h8-h89-pcb-s.html).
 
I think a Kaypro is a great starter. My first CP/M machine was a Kaypro II and it did not disappoint. Still have it and it still works fine too! It needed some minor repairs but nothing too serious. Kaypros are just solid machines all around.

If you want that full authentic experience then you absolutely need a truly vintage machine in my opinion. New hardware just wouldn’t be the same for me. I want real CRTs, floppies, the smell of those old electronics warming up, etc.
 
Like @cj7hawk, I'd also go with the Amstrad PCW. In fact, it's my only CP/M system and I never felt the need for another one.

The C128 could be considered as well, as it is easy to find and easy to work with.
 
Well, what kind of experience are you looking for? Because the one thing lacking from all of the modern systems is the floppy factor. The visceral experience of swapping floppies, the tick tick tick of them being formatted, the little light and the whir whir whir when you open a file, organizing your work in floppy sized chunks etc.

Of course, there's also the performance. Many of the modern systems are very fast.

So, while the software is authentic, the experience, perhaps, is not.

It's one of the things that has precluded me, personally, from getting one of those modern, matchbox sized little CP/M systems that you shove a USB cable into. In the end, for me, the experience is opening up a terminal window on my eleventy giga blips workstation to talk to the little box. And that experience, for me, is not that different than a simulator. It looks the same, it sounds the same (as in it doesn't make any sounds at all), no physical interaction with the device, etc.

I even run my simulator at 4Mhz, just to get a better feel for the world that was. But even that doesn't capture the performance (or lack of) of things like the floppy drives.

Obvious, if you grab an Apple // or a Kaypro, the experience is quite different. So, it's just a question you should ask about what experience you're looking for.
 
I use both Apple II's with CP/M cards, and a RC2014 Pro that I built; I don't know if I'd call either a starter machine. 140K floppies work on the Apple II, so that's fun. The RC2014 experience was great too though, I spent a good 6 months off and on building mine out, adding the modules I wanted, etc. I learned a ton in the process too. I finally upgraded it to RomWBW this week, which opened up a world of other software.

But, if you can stumble across a cheap Apple II, the GGLabs Z80 cards are solid. I own both; the PCPI clone is my preferred one.
 
MrImprovement said:
I appreciate the comments! The Circle M MinZ-C actually is fascinating to me; seems you could keep it on your person and use it wherever you are. Maybe put it on a lanyard somehow?
Click to expand...
I have its cousin the Min-eZ. It’s a small 50 MHz eZ80 based system with a similar form factor (I suspect by the same developer). Speed wise it’s a screamer… it’s super scaled (x3!) so that 50 MHz feels like 150 MHz.
 
I do like the look of the Circle M eZ80 stuff.

However, I think I will look around for a KayPro or TRS-80 4P, since they can be stowed away in a few minutes and won't be harmed sitting beside my desk or being put in the back of the car while traveling.

My thinking is dual-floppy setup or one with a hard disk if it works and I can afford it, with a "WifiModem" or similar hanging off the serial port, to use for transferring files in/out. If there is an easy way to get an SD or CF card in there as well, I might do that. I think part of it is however to be as simple as possible and to force myself to actually work within the limitations of the hardware.

I don't know if I will create "art" with it, but the saying "art cannot be created in the absence of limitations" comes to mind - I figure if I learn on the closer-to-the-metal CPM machine it might actually result in something "sticking" in my brain :unsure:
 
The Commodore 128 may be the cheapest way in. Its z80 is pretty slow, but it can read many different cp/m disk formats. And they are plentiful and cheap. Probably spend more on the CGA monitor or CGA-VGA converter for 80col mode. Plus you've got all that huge C= community, all sorts modern storage solutions, etc. And when you get tired of playing with CP/M there's the whole C64 ecosystem to explore.

The RC2014 is pretty amazing if you are remotely handy with a soldering iron and most interested in the hardware rather than the software.

But the coolest would probably be an H8 with an org zero card, imo.
 
A hard to find (aren't they all?) Z80 board that would require a terminal (or terminal program) would be the Ampro Little Board which was a play on the Big Board name used by another company. It has the same physical footprint as a 5.25" floppy drive, can be mounted to a drive, and the 2nd revision of the board came with a port for a hard drive. Two serial and one parallel ports too. Software package for it is available. I have the early version (no HDD) installed in a powered twin external 5.25" drive case with two quad density drives. They do show up on the auction site from time to time.
 
There is both a Heathkit/Zenith H89/Z89 (not sure) and a Northstar Advantage with unknown size HDD available not that far away.

The seller seems a bit high on prices, but probably because he is pricing stuff based on eBay "Buy It Now" and well, things aren't always bought at the BIN price, are they? Also his knowledge of these items in terms of maintenance and what can go wrong is limited, so I would have to factor in the possibility that further repairs/recapping etc. would be needed over and above his asking price.

I have found some reference to using WordStar as an outliner, in my playing with the MSDOS version, again under emulation in DOSBox, it seems I could live with it as something to bang out some writing in. Those old keyboards are just so seductive compared to today's "chiclet" style laptop keyboards and the mushy desktop equivalents!

The best outliner I have used so far is the freeware/abandonware "GrandView" which is a DOS only program whose size of outline is limited by the RAM it can see as being free after the program has loaded; not sure if that means about 468K or if it can see the EMS/XMS RAM if available. That KAMAS appears to be programmable in some way, seemed pretty cool.
 
If you are not sure of running only CP/M and might want some form of MS-DOS then there's also the Epson QX-16 which has both a Z80 for CP/M plus an 8088 for MS-DOS (2.0?). But it is not IBM compatible can't use PC-DOS or IBM plug-in cards. The earlier QX-10 with a 8088 adapter card can also run MS-DOS, I believe.
 
DeltaDon said:
If you are not sure of running only CP/M and might want some form of MS-DOS then there's also the Epson QX-16 which has both a Z80 for CP/M plus an 8088 for MS-DOS (2.0?). But it is not IBM compatible can't use PC-DOS or IBM plug-in cards. The earlier QX-10 with a 8088 adapter card can also run MS-DOS, I believe.
Click to expand...

I was fortunate last weekend to get an IBM 5160 XT with monitor, HDD, dot matrix printer etc. at a good price; so my need for DOS is satisfied.
 
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