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DELQA vs DELQA-YM (Turbo)

RSX11M+

RSX11M+

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Feb 14, 2011
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I've recently acquired an M7504 (DEQNA) and am thinking about an M7516 (DELQA). I'd like to borrow from your experiences with them if you can...

From the research so far, it appears the M7516 can be upgraded to the M7516-YM via a firmware-only change.

  • Is this true to your knowledge and does anyone out there know where I can obtain the M7516-YM firmware to apply if I decide to get one?


  • The DELQA has a 68000 CPU. What CPU [80186?] does the DEQNA have? [I'm still looking for a print set and technical manual for these]


  • I'd be interested in hearing about anyone's experiences using BOOTP on either series module.


  • Also, if possible please verify that you've used either or both of these modules with standard AUI UTP Transceivers.

Any "unsolicited pearls of wisdom" offered, will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 
I have never tried to "upgrade" a delqa to a turbo, but would be willing to try. It looks like the roms are 365 and 366 and are available from Pete T.'s decrom collection.

I have at least four delqas through various q-bus systems. My 11/04 has a deuna. I have used all of them with plain vanilla, DEC, and HP AUI 10base2 and 10baseT transceivers. All machines run RT-11 and the Kent State Univ. TCP/IP package. I use FTP to transfer files with the machines, but that package can do much more.

Three times I have had to make the twentysomething pin Berg to AUI cables. I also have the correct dec loopback AUI plugs for the xxdp maindecs for the network cards if you need one.

Lou
 
Ok, Thanks Lou. I thought I recalled you're already going on some of that adventure.


I found the schematic for the DELQA on Bitsavers, and PDF page 14 has the rework instructions - appears to be roms-only for most versions.

I still can't find the schematic for the DEQNA yet, or the Tech Manual for either.

Ever even hear of anyone using BOOTP on these? I have a wacky idea or two if it can work. ;)

Do all the DIAGs require the loopback kit to be in place?


Thanks for the info... please let me know if you decide to evaluate that ROM upgrade... I'd like to know if it works.
 
About bootp... The TCP/IP package I mentioned earlier is supposed to support it (and RARP), but I never got it to work. My home router (some eight year old belkin) does DHCP but may not do BOOTP (I never checked closely though.) Being lazy, I just assigned static IP addresses (inside the house).

The maindecs don't require the loopback plug, but you won't be able to run all the tests without it.

Lou
 
Incidentally... it appears the M7504 may be 8051 CPU based.
 
After a little more thought, I decided to roll the dice and ordered an M7516 to see if the Turbo Firmware did it any good.

The M7504 I got had been heavily reworked, and I wanted something a little less molested anyway. [not that I see rework negatively - this one obviously has all the last DEC changes, but with no schematic... ]

I have 68k debugging tools here in case I want to look into how the M7516 functions - which I can't do with the M7504. So it will be possible to correct any minor misbehaviors that might be encountered.

I'll post back to here if any insight is gained.

Thanks to all for looking or posting. (Lou!)
 
M7516 board received. Upon examination, I see differences between this board and the M7516-YM. [This is consistent in all internet photos of the versions so far]

  • The M7516-YM uses J1 artwork, while the M7516 uses H1.
  • The YM has an extra resistor next to the CPU, while mine is modified to include this resistor and a jumper.
  • Also, mine has 4 , 0-ohm resistors [permanent jumper] next to a resistor SIP near the CPU, which are not present in the YM.

Guess I'll need to consult the schematics.

I looked at the ROM contents, and there is more code added to the YM's ROMs, but the rest is largely the same as the other version.

More later.
 
I've exchanged emails with Eric Smith, who had pretty much the same question back in 2000, but he got no answer then either and never got back to the project.

In that post, he points out that the "YM" exchanges an AM7990 (AMD) Ethernet chip for a TC23SC241 (Toshiba) in addition to the new PROM revision.

Reading the DELQA Addendum, I see there are some desirable differences between the behaviors of the two modules, some of which are on the QBUS side. The jumper differences I noted are explained in the schematics, and don't seem to matter much. [yet] On the bright side, the Addendum mentions using the DELQA as a network boot device. [Yippie!]

The DELQA schematic "YM" rework instructions, that mention changing the Ethernet chip along with the PROMs, but it's not at all clear if that's possible or required for the "M".

So far, the "YM" has "J1" artwork, and the "M" has "H1" artwork. I'm still trying to comprehend the rework enough to determine which "M" revision I have, and if that effectively makes it a "YM" [except for the Ethernet chip and PROMs]

I pulled a Datasheet from my library [of hieroglyphics] on the AM7990 [none for the other yet] and I'll read it over the next couple days to see if the enhancements mentioned in the addendum require something different or not. I still haven't checked the Fiche set to see if there's anything additional there.

Oh, Lou - if you're still following along - I would appreciate if you could post the connections to make a "Loop-back" plug, needed for XXDP testing. I don't see it explained anywhere. I might be missing it though, my head is kind of swimming a lot lately with all these details. - LOL

UPDATE:

I just picked up my "M" board to check it against the rework instructions and realized it HAS THE TOSHIBA TC23SC241 installed! Saved me a bunch of time there. Tells me the H1 board, as revised, accepts this device.

I'm all but convinced the "YM" firmware can be tried. I'll sleep on it and review in the morning.

In the meantime, would anyone following this thread please check their DELQAs and post which Ethernet chip they have?... It's the only 48-pin DIP on the board. You might check for a module rev tag too... mine's E04.
 
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Yes, I have certainly been following. I'll check on the chipsets on my various delqa's this weekend (not at home at the moment.) I would be interested at some point to do an A vs. B performace test of a delqa and turbo delqa transfering a large file by FTP. I would need to upgrade one of the delqas to turbo though, because none of the ones I have are -YM (or are at least stamped that way on the handle.) No hurry though since I have both of my DSD440s' controllers on my bench at the moment (the main and backup are both broke!). The 8/e is offline until I get at least one of the DSD440s fixed.

Send me a PM if you want me to mail you a dec AUI loopback plug. I must have ten of them.

Lou
 
More information...

Pouring over the available schematics, some likely relationships between LANCE chip revisions, board configurations and firmware revisions - are becoming clear.

First I should say that the drawing set is unusually complex (hence "unclear") because it consists of schematics for version H1 and J1 generations of the DELQA circuit boards. Moreover, between these issues the computer systems used to generate the designs and artwork were changed, requiring the entire database (schematic and artwork) to be re-entered from scratch.

Consequently, although they are superficially similar, it has taken some time to scrutinize these versions to assure they are indeed the same after rework, except where the need for jumpers are no longer required by the newer artwork.

Furthermore, a disclaimer in the package indicates "Option Revisions were never updated to reflect these changes".

With this in mind, I am seeing the following relationships emerge.


1) The LANCE Ethernet chip (E13) comes in several varieties.

The DEC part numbers for these are as follows...
21-21672-04 REV D LANCE
21-21672-07 REV E LANCE
21-21672-09 ??
21-21672-10 "C-LANCE"
​

  • Notes seem to indicate -9 and -10 are equivalent.
  • Rework instructions indicate -07 (and earlier) should be replaced by -10.
  • Apparently -7, -9 and -10 all require the same jumper configurations, while others do not.
A nice Wikipedia article is revealing...

A later refabricated chip called the C-LANCE Am79C90 is made with 0.8 micrometre CMOS technology. The original NMOS version Am7990 and the CMOS Am79C90 version are differ in some details which may have an impact on device driver compatibility.

CHIP BUGS

The old LANCE (Rev. C) chips have a bug which causes garbage to be inserted in front of the received packet. The workaround is to ignore packets with an invalid destination address (garbage will usually not match). Of course, this precludes multicast support.[SUP][3][/SUP] The Amiga SANA-II network interface API has poor multicast support. And this chip bug might be the reason.

No capability for transmit buffer byte count of zero. Receive lockup may occur if bus latency is large. External loopback on a live network may cause reception of invalid loopback failure indications. Receive descriptor zero byte count buffer interpreted as 4096 available bytes. Will poll computer memory every 1.6 ms for new packets to transmit.
Click to expand...

2) Firmware:

There is some confusion over which firmware is required to implement the "TURBO" behavior of the "YM" boards, since both YM and M versions appear to have been initially built with 334/335 ROMs.

Online documents indicate:
M7516-YM ROMs: (v2.0.0)​
23-365E5 ( E28? )
23-366E5 ( E29? )
​


M7516-M ROMs:
​
23-334E5 ( E28 )
23-335E5 ( E29 )
​

  • From rework instructions, it appears that if your board already has 334/335 ROMs, then it's LANCE chip should already be -10.
  • Conversely, if the firmware is older than 334/335, then you might possibly have LANCE chips before -9, in which case not only the LANCE chip would need to be changed, but other rework may be required.
  • The "YM" (TURBO) firmware (334/335 and 365/366) must therefore require at least -10 LANCE (possibly -9)

However, since "YM" Boards appear to have been initially built with 334/335 ROMs, it therefore follows that any boards with them could, and should, be upgradable to firmware 365/366.


3) The DELQA-PLUS Addendum:

Appendix D - has instructions regarding testing for a board that is TURBO capable, and to see if TURBO mode is enabled. It specifically states that Firmware Version 2.0 or above is required for TURBO mode to operate and for the board to respond correctly to these tests.

I should be able to come up with a simple set of ODT commands to verify some of this.

I see no place where DEC might hide a secret bit to enable this function, so it must be contingent only on having capable LANCE chip and minimum firmware Rev 2.0. I'll try to look at the DEC ROM contents for both versions 335/336 and 365/366 to see if I can determine their "Revision" level. [sometimes we get lucky and they're in ASCII]
​



That's it for tonight. Please, if you have M7516's, take a few minutes to post their particulars.
 
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OK, so I have three DELQAs on the table out here in front of me. All are M7516-00. MP02379-01 is also at hand for reference.

"Oldest" one : H1 etch revision, ECO rev C (charlie) 04 , serial AS82206768 (1988 week 22), newest chip date 8749 (49th week, 1987), 322/323 roms, E13 is AMD AM7790DC/70 (dec 21-21672-07)

"Middle" one : H1 etch, ECO rev E (echo) 04, serial AS85126097 (1988 week 51), newest chip 8838, 334/335 roms, E13 = AMD AM7790DC/80 (dec 21-21672-09)

"Newest" one : J1 etch, ECO rev E05, serial AS00744661 (1990 week 7), newest chip 8950, 334/335 roms, E13 = Toshiba TC23SC241AP-002 (dec 21672-10)


So where the heck is AS ?? AB is Albuquerque and AY is Scotland..... Was AS Augusta, Maine? Must have been...


There are three other delqas in the house, installed in machines. One of them (in the heathkit H11) is burried deep in a closet. The others are in 11/73 and 11/53s which are slightly easier to access being the "inside the house" nice machine and "in the garage" utility machine. I may pull those two later.

Lou
 
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Wow Lou... that fits exactly.

I should think you can try the 365/366 ROMs in the E04 and E05 boards. [definitely the latter] I would expect XXDP to give the same Revision level [would be nice to know which] for both prior to upgrading the ROMs, and v2.0 after.

I'd take a heavy bet that they will test as M7516-YMs after ROM upgrade. [Be sure to set the switches... see DELQA-PLUS Addendum for details]

The rev C04 board may fail with 334/335 ROMs and 365/366, but I'd really like you to try em just to know. If I am correct, this board will not work in Turbo, until it's reworked. DEC might have coded the firmware to be "universal", allowing newer ROMs to run anyway, I just don't know. You could install an am79c90 to fix it, but I think there are other reworks it needs too. See instructions in the MPs for details. [ PDF page 14 plus notes on page 8]

NOTE: The E04 board will be a good reference for this rework if you attempt it.​


I can't wait to try mine. Is there any way you could take some hi-res pics and email em to me? I'd like to be able to read all the chip's nomenclature and post em here for reference when we're done.
 
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A few words on my impressions of the "LANCE am7990 / C-LANCE am79c90" chips... [for those other detail nutz out there]

I've obtained datasheets for these, including a "Preliminary" edition from my copy of a 1985 Data Book, and I must say it is one nice chip from both a hardware and software viewpoint. I almost created the opportunity in the mid 80's to do an ethernet adapter for one of our systems, but it didn't come off. I'd like to think this would have been my choice for that design, as it appeals to my baser instincts for simplicity, and elegance.

DEC apparently committed to the LANCE very early in it's evolution. Some of the DELQA engineering release drawings date to May 1986 with copyright statements dated 1985.

I take this to mean that DEC was designing the DELQA in 1985 from preliminary specs, probably prior to availability of the "release" IC. Some [marketing] liked to call this practice "Being on the CUTTING EDGE of TECHNOLOGY" - but we engineers usually referred to it as "THE BLEEDING EDGE". With such early design attempts, revisions are inevitable. Sometimes they can be fundamental in nature.

To the chip designer's credit, subsequent generations of the part were able to maintain a high level of "pin-for-pin compatibility", despite being significantly enhanced to make up shortcomings of the original design. Only one pin's behavior [ALE] was changed significantly enough to have implications for surrounding circuits, and even then - only in "some" boards.

However, it is clear from the additional features, that early experience with the chip was not altogether satisfactory. A deeper receive silo, refinements in "Burst Mode" DMA, tightening of interpacket gap specs, addition of "Modified Back-off Algorithm", a new ALE pin behavior, plus correction of out-and-out "Chip Bugs", all improve high density ethernet traffic performance.

A most appealing feature of the chip's design, is an architecture of tight coupling to the host microprocessor through DMA. The LANCE chip has the ability to directly perform 16-bit DMA in a memory address environment up to 24 bits in size [the DELQA uses only 16] and includes the ability to alter it's byte order preference to suit the host system.

This achieves a level of hardware simplicity that is highly desirable and potentially reliable. But this isn't even the best part...

The software implications of the architecture are possibly the best news. The chip is mainly initialized by supplying it with a pointer to a memory data structure [yes an actual 'c' struct if you wish] which contains pointers to other initializers, pointer rings, and packet buffers. From then on, the host program is "managing" the LANCE by interacting with this memory, rather than directly with the chip. Errors, diagnostics and a few other setup details are the primary exception to this.

In summary, this chip design followed the trends of the times: large scale integration of concepts and components into a very comprehensive unit. We used to call this direction "Smart Hardware".
 
DELQA Firmare revisions

DELQA Firmare revisions

Wading through the DELQA-PLUS Addendum I see the following:

DELQA_FW_revisions.jpg


I hope to eventually identify the DEC P/Ns of ROMs containing these versions, however I suspect:

Code: 
[FONT=fixedsys]

           [U]E28[/U]   [U]E29[/U]    [U]Revision[/U]

        23-259 / 260    0.10.37
        23-304 / 305    1.0.0
        23-314 / 315      ?
        23-322 / 323      ?
        23-334 / 335    1.9.0
        23-366 / 365    2.0.0

[/FONT]
Note: All Even numbered ROMS go in E28, Odd in E29 - except the initial release [259/260]

More on this as evidence emerges. Anyone able to identify these in their system [perhaps using XXDP] please post their results.
 
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Lou - N2MIY said:
..."Oldest" one : H1 etch revision, ECO rev C (charlie) 04 , serial AS82206768 (1988 week 22), newest chip date 8749 (49th week, 1987), 322/323 roms, E13 is AMD AM7790DC/70 (dec 21-21672-07)...
Click to expand...

Lou, I was just looking into ROM contents and realized that 322/323 are not on Pete's site. Would you please email them to me?

I'd hate to lose the opportunity to archive them.

We're still looking for 314/315, 304/305, and 259/260. They aren't there either.

Once again, anyone who has these, please post.
 
And here's the info on the one in my 11/73:


J1 etch, ECO rev E05, serial AS20868273 (1992 week 8 ), newest chip 9150, 334/335 roms, E13 = Toshiba TC23SC241AP-003 (dec 21-21672-13)

So this LANCE chip is even a later revision than the last one in your earlier list. But the ECO rev is still labeled on the card as E05?

I will certainly dump the 322/323 and send to you and Pete.

Lou
 
Lets see...

Our Maintainence Print Set is obviously not the latest. 21-21672-13 would likely be interchangeable with everything after -9.

I am curious that this board has the 334/335 set. Must have been right on the cusp of the new rev, or intentionally made with non-turbo - which I guess is consistent.

Thanks on the 322/323.

Do you have any convenient way to get the firmware to report a revision level on these? [XXDP for example?]
 
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