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Doesn't anyone else want to BBS with their PET?

R

Ral-Clan

Experienced Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2016
Messages
166
Location
Ontario, Canada
Hi,

I find it surprising that there is a lot of enthusiasm in getting vintage computers online, either via wifi modems, real telephone modems, or connecting to a LAN, yet the PET community doesn't seem to have joined in with this. The PET would seem like a great candidate for modern day BBSing, etc. It's got a nice, sharp green phosphor screen, has PETSCII, and comes in 40 and 80 column models. The PET was also more of a productivity computer, so there would be lots of uses for it if given network connectivity.

None of the current wifi modems easily support the PET, and there doesn't really seem to be an easy way of getting it connected to the outside world. The Wifi232 wireless modem apparently has support for running something called MCTERM, but you need to make your own interface (and there are no instructions available). Here's a quote (and link) from the product's website: Supports Commodore PET “MCTerm” character set translation (requires custom cable, interface).

As far as I know there are a few ways to get it online:

1. buy an original (i.e. manufactured in the 1970s or 80s) RS-232 interface made for thet PET. These are as rare as hen's teeth.

2. buy one of the only know PET dedicated modem (the model 8010). Again, rare then hen's teeth and I regret not buying the one I saw for sale at a thrift store years ago (but this was long before I had a PET).

3. Get a SuperPET with its built-in RS-232 port. I have this particular PET, so I'm hopeful, but I'm not sure the RS-232 port is even accessible from the 6502 side (where all the good terminal programs run). I did find this document, but it only provides code in WATCOM BASIC: http://mikenaberezny.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/superpet_serial_port.pdf

4. Be a total hardware guru and make yourself an interface. Not for the average user:
http://biosrhythm.com/?p=1359
https://twitter.com/paulrickards/status/755151805257056256

Doesn't anyone else want to BBS with their PET, or is anyone here actually doing it?
Unfortunately, I can't be of much help. I'm not technical enough to do more than assemble such an interface from a kit, if one was to be sold.
 
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The PET has the same user port as the VIC-20 and C64, so I would think either the WiModem32 or Strikelink/Strikelink Wifi would plug right in. You'd just need a classic terminal program for the PET and you should be good to go.

Looks like there was some software here: http://biosrhythm.com/?p=1359
 
You can add an ACIA to a PET and have real RS232. I don't know if there's a standard address location for the ACIA though, nor if any available software supports it.

The Vic and C64 have firmware RS232 emulation, I don't think the PET ROMs have it built in, but maybe software can do it.

What kind of modems did PETs use? My first guess would be HPIB but I've no idea anymore.
 
Ral-clan my pet has white phosphor!! Not green!

Secondly your absolutely right. I want to BBS with my PET. That's why I bought a wifi modem (for use with all my other retro hardware to) but if all you want is a CBM machine to have access buy this : https://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=WiModemOLED

I bought his standard serial version and am making a user port to serial rs232 adapter cable

Edit:
I am making this cable in an attempt to try connecting my PET: http://biosrhythm.com/?p=1136
 
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rittwage said:
The PET has the same user port as the VIC-20 and C64, so I would think either the WiModem32 or Strikelink/Strikelink Wifi would plug right in. You'd just need a classic terminal program for the PET and you should be good to go.

Looks like there was some software here: http://biosrhythm.com/?p=1359
Click to expand...

But it is not the same. The User Port on the PET is slightly different. For one it doesn't provide +5v required to power the WiModem, also there are other differences. And lastly, apparently, the motherboard of the PET doesn't support the ability to bitbang the serial data the same way the later VIC-20 and C64 did. It needs to be written into the software.

Click the images below to make them bigger.

C64 USER PORT PINOUT:
c64.jpg

PET USER PORT:
pet.jpg
 
VERAULT said:
Ral-clan my pet has white phosphor!! Not green!

Secondly your absolutely right. I want to BBS with my PET. That's why I bought a wifi modem (for use with all my other retro hardware to) but if all you want is a CBM machine to have access buy this : https://www.cbmstuff.com/proddetail.php?prod=WiModemOLED

I bought his standard serial version and am making a user port to serial rs232 adapter cable

Edit:
I am making this cable in an attempt to try connecting my PET: http://biosrhythm.com/?p=1136
Click to expand...

Well, I do have both the WiModem and the Wifi232 modem. The first I bought for my VIC-20 (the designer said it wouldn't work on a PET without some modification). I bought the Wifi232 with the hopes that it would work on my SuperPET's internal serial port (the DB25 port that only comes inside a SuperPET), but I've since met with stumbling blocks and knowledge gaps (see my message at the top of this thread).

Also, are you sure that User Port interface you linked to will actually work on the PET? It's meant for the C64. The reason I ask is because there are slight differences in the User Ports (as stated in my last message).
If it does work, I'd be interested in knowing if commercial User-Port to RS-232 interfaces manufactured for the C64 are backwards compatible with the PET - as I have one for the C64 that allows connection of normal serial port modems to the C64's user port. But again, if the PET's user port doesn't provide power to the device, I can't see how it would work out of the box.
 
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Ral-clan.. I am sure of nothing. But I want to get my PET on some BBS's as much as you, so I fugured that would be a good place to start. Also, I can tap 5V off the cassette card edge connector no problem.
 
Well Ive done some more reading. I guess my eagerness got ahead of me.. I see the problem now.

Well this stinks.. We need to come up with something.
 
If I had time, this is on my list of things to do already. What we need is a standardised way to add a 6551 ACIA to the PET, and a functional terminal emulator that will work with it. Unfortunately I won't get time anytime in the next few months if at all.

Or (sell your left arm and) get one of these http://www.ni.com/en-us/support/model.gpib-rs232.html and see if you can find a terminal emulator that supports it.

I don't want to connect to a BBS; I just want a Unix console. There will be a lot of issues with that just due to missing keys...
 
Unix console, terminal bbs connectivity. All the same.. we all want serial connectivity.
Ral-Clan when you reached out to Jim Drew on the wimodem, did he pretty much state it wasnt something he was going to pursue at all?
 
Yes, it's surprising there weren't more modem solutions for the PET in the 1980s. One commercial modem sold at the time! I am frankly surprised, and wouldn't doubt if there were more people back then getting a PET online somehow through ways I have not yet stumbled across.

I have read old magazine articles that describe a few PET terminal programs, so obviously people were doing it. Steve Punter even was using a PET to run a BBS. The Toronto Pet User's Group archive has some Terminal programs. Problem is none of these sources describe what hardware solution was being used.

Here is a cached copy of the discussion I was having with Jim Drew about WiModem PET compatibility. It's on Amiga.org. Scroll to the top of the page and read downward until you see my first post:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...96+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-b
 
Ral-Clan said:
Well, I do have both the WiModem and the Wifi232 modem. The first I bought for my VIC-20 (the designer said it wouldn't work on a PET without some modification). I bought the Wifi232 with the hopes that it would work on my SuperPET's internal serial port (the DB25 port that only comes inside a SuperPET), but I've since met with stumbling blocks and knowledge gaps (see my message at the top of this thread).

Also, are you sure that User Port interface you linked to will actually work on the PET? It's meant for the C64. The reason I ask is because there are slight differences in the User Ports (as stated in my last message).
If it does work, I'd be interested in knowing if commercial User-Port to RS-232 interfaces manufactured for the C64 are backwards compatible with the PET - as I have one for the C64 that allows connection of normal serial port modems to the C64's user port. But again, if the PET's user port doesn't provide power to the device, I can't see how it would work out of the box.
Click to expand...

I guess you're right, I should not have assumed the ports were the same and had RS-232 ability. It looks like it would need a different interface. Research into 70's PET magazines with articles by Steve Punter would probably be needed to see how he did it.

Wait, that website I linked before has everything you need to do this... They already did all the legwork. What is the question again? :)
 
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Well there was this device :https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CO...764765?hash=item1a4f8c9c1d:g:h4YAAOSw44BYHQun

I was tempted to buy this from this seller last year, I did some research and though the company is called "the NET Works" its apparently a shared RS-232 board you can connect multiple CBM machines to. I gave all this info to the seller but he refuses to believe it and still sells it as a "network device" because of the name of the company.... Thanks Pal!

I wonder if this would work...

Edit: its a 488 (parallel to 232 (serial) interface adapter. IT allows you to connect any serial device to your pet. PRinter, floppy, modem s-l1600.jpg
 
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I'm guessing that's a device that allows many PETs (i.e. in a school room) to use one storage device, printer or (maybe) modem. I am only guess, because I've seen devices like this before mentioned in magazines of the time (although I don't see an IEEE-488 interface port on that box, which was also part of these devices).

Maybe the PET market is too small for Jim Drew or somebody to create a simple interface for PET users to use the WiFi modems.
I would be more brave about trying DIY projects myself if the PET was a more common machine and I knew it was easier to get replacements like the VIC-20 or C64. But with the PET, I'm very cautious.
 
rittwage said:
Wait, that website I linked before has everything you need to do this... They already did all the legwork. What is the question again? :)
Click to expand...

Well, that website is nice, but it's more of a hacker's blog about a project. There is no concise list of steps, parts, and clear schematic of what was done. You can infer if you are clever and experienced enough and stare at the photos, but not for us average tinkerers.
 
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VERAULT said:
Well there was this device :https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CO...764765?hash=item1a4f8c9c1d:g:h4YAAOSw44BYHQun

I was tempted to buy this from this seller last year, I did some research and though the company is called "the NET Works" its apparently a shared RS-232 board you can connect multiple CBM machines to. I gave all this info to the seller but he refuses to believe it and still sells it as a "network device" because of the name of the company.... Thanks Pal!

I wonder if this would work...

Edit: its a 488 (parallel to 232 (serial) interface adapter. IT allows you to connect any serial device to your pet. PRinter, floppy, modem View attachment 45998
Click to expand...

I found this info online about some of those products:

NEW - RS-232 INTERFACE: $229

The TNW-2000 Bidirectional Serial Interface allows
keyboard input as well as printer output The unit
provides selectable automatic PET/ASCII character
conversion, "throttled" output, baud rate adjustable
from 1 10 to 9600 bits per second $229 price includes
power supply, cabinet, PET/IEEE cable, built-in female
EIA connector, full documentation (For software con-
trollable RS-232 control lines, and multiple RS-232
devices. TNW offers the TNW488/232 Serial Interface
Price is $335. includes power supply, cabinet, PET
cable, full documentation.)

MODEM

The TNW488/103 Low Speed Modem is Bell 103
compatible, provides auto originate/answer/dial capa-
bilities 75 to 600 bits per second Interfaces to phone
system via DAA Price of $385 includes power supply,
cabinet, cables to PET and DAA. full documentation and
software
Click to expand...
 
Ral-Clan said:
Well, that website is nice, but it's more of a hacker's blog about a project. There is no concise list of steps, parts, and clear schematic of what was done. You can infer if you are clever and experienced enough and stare at the photos, but not for us average tinkerers.
Click to expand...

agreed.
 
Ral-Clan said:
I found this info online about some of those products:
Click to expand...

Well the board is the same size as the main board on the PET. This is an ieee-488 to RS-232 adapter basically. So you can connect RS-232 devices to the PET. Shouldnt this device work?

My concern is what viable Terminal program is there for the PET? Does anyone have one? Is there a good one?
 
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I asked Paul Rickards if he could point me to his web page on how he connected his PET to the Area 29 BBS. I'd like to see more about how he did it, stand by.
 
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