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End of an era... MS-DOS is Done

E

EagleTG

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Joined
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Near Allentown, PA
Well, I never considered "Command Prompt" to be DOS, because, it isn't.
It is exactly what it says: a Windows NT Command Prompt. You can write console applications for that command prompt, but they are basically Windows applications without the windows. They are 32-bit (or 64-bit these days), and bear no resemblance to DOS at all. The DOS API is not available. You call the same Windows API as you would in other Windows applications.

The only thing 'DOS' about the NT Command Prompt was that it could seamlessly launch 16-bit DOS applications from the 32-bit command prompt, by invoking the NTVDM layer (basically the same trick they also used to run 16-bit Windows applications on NT).
However, in 64-bit versions of Windows, the NTVDM layer was not available, and as such, you could no longer run actual 16-bit DOS applications anymore. Which shows the NT Command Prompt for what it is exactly: not DOS.

It is somewhat related to DOS, since it uses similar commands and syntax... then again, what shell isn't? They're all a combination of CP/M, early UNIX and a bit of their own flavour. Even PowerShell still looks very similar to the NT Command Prompt, and therefore by association, also DOS.
 
That is a really bone headed change to make for just a service pack. But they have gotten in the habit of changing things around whenever they feel like it.

And unless you are using the 32-bit version of Windows 10 then it has almost zilch to do with DOS. CMD.EXE is just a 32-bit or 64-bit CLI command interpreter that happens to resemble the old command.com, and should have been enhanced or replaced a while back anyway.

Now, if you are using the 32-bit version of Windows 10, you still have the NTVDM with DOS and Windows 3.1 compatiblity. THAT includes the entire regiment of DOS programs including "ed", and can run DOS programs all the way back to 86-DOS from before the release of the IBM PC. Here it acts as a command.com substitute, but never was a perfect replacement.

They make no mention of what they are going to do for the 32-bit version. Replacing the command interpreter may mess up DOS programs that need to use batch files. Like I said, a bone headed idea that should wait until the next major version.
 
Chuck(G) said:
It hasn't been MS-DOS in Windows since NT 3.1. That the command syntax is similar doesn't mean that it's DOS.
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Scali said:
Well, I never considered "Command Prompt" to be DOS, because, it isn't.
Click to expand...

You guys are no fun. Right, but no fun. :p

Of course it isn't DOS. The article insinuates that the similarities harken back to MS-DOS and that this limited "reminder" of the MS-DOS days is going away. Bah, I thought it was a fun article.
 
I heard about this on the Windows Insider forums a while ago. But apparently the change isn't permanent - you can switch it back if you like. :)
 
DOS and Windows had a co-existence in Windows 95 and 98. MS-DOS 7.1 is a fully functional DOS and can function in a standalone fashion when stripped of Windows. MS-DOS 8 is probably too crippled to run on its own and offers no benefits over a patched 7.1.
 
EagleTG said:
You guys are no fun. Right, but no fun. :p

Of course it isn't DOS. The article insinuates that the similarities harken back to MS-DOS and that this limited "reminder" of the MS-DOS days is going away. Bah, I thought it was a fun article.
Click to expand...

Oh, sure I am! :) The similarities hearken back to CP/M and, I suppose, OS-8 for the PDP-8.
 
EagleTG said:
You guys are no fun. Right, but no fun. :p

Of course it isn't DOS. The article insinuates that the similarities harken back to MS-DOS and that this limited "reminder" of the MS-DOS days is going away. Bah, I thought it was a fun article.
Click to expand...
Man, you hit that nail square on the head!!!

And I'll bet those squares didn't actually bother read that article like you did. :) :) :)
 
There used to be both COMMAND.COM and CMD.EXE on the system - possibly, in NT4/Win2K era.
 
Dang! I used to find "Command Prompt" really useful for looking at networks, stuff, even if it wasn't really DOS.

I've never used Powershell and am not near a Win 10 machine right now. Does it have the same commands, like Netstat, IPconfig etc, or am I going to have to learn some new ones?
 
roberttx said:
Dang! I used to find "Command Prompt" really useful for looking at networks, stuff, even if it wasn't really DOS.

I've never used Powershell and am not near a Win 10 machine right now. Does it have the same commands, like Netstat, IPconfig etc, or am I going to have to learn some new ones?
Click to expand...

External programs like Netstat and IPconfig can be started in a PowerShell session and some commands like DIR have equivalent aliases under PowerShell. However PowerShell is designed as thin wrapper around the Windows API so only dedicated Windows programmers can really get much benefit from it.

For example, determining free memory would be Get-Counter '\Memory\Available MBytes' which is a simplified alias to the WMI functions.

Long form would be Get-WmiObject -Class Win32_OperatingSystem -Property FreePhysicalMemory
 
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roberttx said:
Dang! I used to find "Command Prompt" really useful for looking at networks, stuff, even if it wasn't really DOS.

I've never used Powershell and am not near a Win 10 machine right now. Does it have the same commands, like Netstat, IPconfig etc, or am I going to have to learn some new ones?
Click to expand...

What makes you think the Command Prompt has gone away. Right click on the start button and you have both an Admin and Non-Admin command prompt. NETSTAT, IPCONFIG et. al. are still there, as are the old vbscript and jscript interpreters in cscript and wscript so need to panic just yet...

...On the other hand I think its worth learning PowerShell if you are going to do any Windows automation tasks. Its not too hard to learn as it has a fairly consistent syntax so in general commands are formatted as

"Verb-object"

so for example "get-date" will return the date. For each "get-xxx" command there is a matching "set-xxx" command, so "set-date" allows the date to be set. There is also "tab completion" so typing the partial command "get-" and then pressing "<tab>" will list all the "get-" commands.

There is also the "Powershell ISE" which is a program development GUI with extensive help, commands to process data in CSV files, and the ability to manipulate ".NET" objects
 
g4ugm said:
What makes you think the Command Prompt has gone away. Right click on the start button and you have both an Admin and Non-Admin command prompt. NETSTAT, IPCONFIG et. al. are still there, as are the old vbscript and jscript interpreters in cscript and wscript so need to panic just yet...
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The linked article appears to imply that MS are planning on eliminating it with SP1. Like how Win 10 originally allowed users to turn off Cortana*, but that ability was removed with the Anniversary update.

That said, I'm home now and at a Win 10 box and, so far, Powershell does seem to do most of what I'd usually do from the Command Prompt, so I guess it's not the end of the world. Even if it doesn't look quite right.


* Who came up with the name Cortana? It sounds like the Ford Cortina, the poor man's Granada, which I say even though my Dad had one and the Sweeney had two. Those were the days when Ford had exactly 10 different locks, so if you could collect 10 different keys with "Ford" on them, you could unlock and drive away any Ford you came across.
 
roberttx said:
* Who came up with the name Cortana?
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I don't know who came up with it but I think I know from where it comes from. There is this recent video game series called "Halo" and I do not think it is developed by Microsoft, but it has always been associated with it and Xbox. They must have the rights to it. Anyway in those games, or at least in the first one, there is this artificial intelligence called... Cortana. So I'm pretty sure that's where that comes from.

"The name Cortana (also Curtana or Courtain) is a Latinized form of the Anglo-French curtein, from Latin curtus meaning "shortened." The name is used for a ceremonial type of sword. According to legend, one such weapon was the sword of Ogier the Dane - it bore the inscription "My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durendal." Durendal (spelled 'Durandal' in this sense) was the name of an Artificial intelligence in a previous Bungie game, Marathon. This also ties in with Cortana telling John "I am your shield, I am your sword.""

What does Cortana even do in Windows??

Scali said:
The only thing 'DOS' about the NT Command Prompt was that it could seamlessly launch 16-bit DOS applications from the 32-bit command prompt, by invoking the NTVDM layer (basically the same trick they also used to run 16-bit Windows applications on NT).
However, in 64-bit versions of Windows, the NTVDM layer was not available, and as such, you could no longer run actual 16-bit DOS applications anymore. Which shows the NT Command Prompt for what it is exactly: not DOS.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know why NTVDM is non-existant from the 64-bit versions of Windows? Is it for technical reasons, or is it simply to make people buy both versions of every Windows releases :confused:

Whatever the reason is it is a huge problem. Is it possible to run NTVDM in 64-bit Windows? If it is then that's definitely something I would do.
 
6885P5H said:
Does anyone know why NTVDM is non-existant from the 64-bit versions of Windows?
Click to expand...

The x64 Instruction set does not support 16-bit mode when in 'long mode' (The native 64-bit CPU mode required for 64-bit Operating Systems) - it was never implemented in the CPU hardware. It is only available when the CPU is running in 32-bit 'compatibility mode'.
 
bobba84 said:
The x64 Instruction set does not support 16-bit mode when in 'long mode' (The native 64-bit CPU mode required for 64-bit Operating Systems) - it was never implemented in the CPU hardware. It is only available when the CPU is running in 32-bit 'compatibility mode'.
Click to expand...
But it is technically possible, it just would have been an extra layer of complexity. That is how Wine runs 16-bit applications on 64-bit Linux and how 16-bit programs run in virtualizers.

Still, a better solution would have been to switch to a software emulator. Keep in mind NTVDM was based on SoftWindows, and it used emulation on Alpha CPU architectures.

The real issue is that nobody at Microsoft knows how to program anymore.
 
If they eliminate the shell, what will RPi users do with it? Log in?

Wasn't it brilliant of Microsoft to start a new command line language up in 2014? I mean, even if it really was necessary to dump MS-DOS, all the other myriad of command line languages we have wouldn't have been good enough? Even Amiga used Tripos.

Did DOSBOX stop working? I thought everyone already used that anyway.
 
KC9UDX said:
Did DOSBOX stop working? I thought everyone already used that anyway.
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DOSBox still works - I still use it. But it doesn't have the UI integration or 16-bit windows app support that NTVDM did. Unless of course you install 16-bit Windows in it. But even then, it'd be apps within a window, not integrated into the host UI.
 
Stone said:
Man, you hit that nail square on the head!!!

And I'll bet those squares didn't actually bother read that article like you did. :) :) :)
Click to expand...

Cool. I was worried that people wouldn't "get" my post. Sarcasm is hard to portray on the internet. :D

I should put something like "always read my posts with the highest tone of sarcasm your brain can muster" in my signature line.
 
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