Has anyone here had to dispute an order with PCBWay?

[skate323k137]

I recently ordered some cartridge PCB's for my SC-3000 from PCBWay. It's a community design, and the designer has it set to not allow gerber downloads. As such you have to order it thru PCBway (not a big deal, the designer gets a cut). When I ordered it the 1st time, I approved removing the solder mask from the edge connector (the original designer had left solder mask between the fingers, and they recommended against this). The HASL ones I ordered came out fine:

Spoiler

Happy with those, and having built a couple, I put in an order for a not-insignificant amount of ENIG finished ones. I made the same approval regarding the solder mask between the fingers (Since I can't obtain the gerber to modify it), but these showed up with a defect of some concern:

Spoiler

Notice there's exposed ground plane right by the first pin, which is unfortunately +5v

I know the odds of these being put into a socket far enough (and askew enough) to cause a power-to-ground short there aren't great, but none the less, I'm not super settled about it. I wouldn't feel right selling them, honestly. I am open to input if I am over-reacting, it is just my gut feeling. Would you care? Be worried? Meh?

 

[Chuck(G)]

It looks as if the solder mask is a bit higher, but I wouldn't worry about it--depending on solder mask to provide insulation is probably not the best idea. I take it that you don't have the original gerbers, so you can't really have hard documentation of the problem. PCBWay may well have done the job correctly, according to the gerbers they have on file. I think that extending the ground plane copper that close to a power-carrying edge connector contact is not a good idea to start with.

I've never had a problem with PCBWay, but then it's always been my own work.

 

[skate323k137]

It looks as if the solder mask is a bit higher, but I wouldn't worry about it--depending on solder mask to provide insulation is probably not the best idea. I take it that you don't have the original gerbers, so you can't really have hard documentation of the problem. PCBWay may well have done the job correctly, according to the gerbers they have on file. I think that extending the ground plane copper that close to a power-carrying edge connector contact is not a good idea to start with.

I've never had a problem with PCBWay, but then it's always been my own work.

Same regarding my own work; In general I've had good luck. Correct, I cannot access the gerber, but there is some insight. I think they did me a solid last time and trimmed the ground plane too; here's the EQ photo I approved:



I agree I wouldn't want to rely on the mask on those edges, nor would I probably have brought the ground plane that close either. I noticed the little 'teeth' on the right are gone too on the HASL ones, but poking out on the ENIG ones. Either way, what I got isn't what I approved, and apparently what I approved this time isn't what I received the 1st time. So it seems what they did was inconsistent both times... the first time I guess I did not know I lucked out, so I re-ordered to the same specs (minus finish). So on their side, why not just pull the last production files? IDK.

Also you can see the height of the solder mask removal is the same if you look around the top of the 2nd/3rd pins and what's exposed. They almost certainly trimmed the ground plane last time without letting me know; had I know, I would have asked. The protos looked good >_<

 

[skate323k137]

They emailed me back and I was right; last time they trimmed the ground plane with the solder mask but didn't tell me.

 

[djg]

Notice there's exposed ground plane right by the first pin, which is unfortunately +5v

I use these when I need to fix solder mask. I have MG chemical one. They discontinued the part # I have and increased the price.
https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=overcoat pen

 

[alank2]

These Chinese fabs love to get you for anything they can. They would often tell me they would remake the boards only if I would pay for the shipping.

 

[Timo W.]

I know the odds of these being put into a socket far enough (and askew enough) to cause a power-to-ground short there aren't great,

Sorry, but they are ZERO. While I understand that we all always want perfect stuff for as little money as possible, you are complaining about an issue that does not exist. That small fraction of exposed ground plane can never ever make contact in the slot.

 

[skate323k137]

Sorry, but they are ZERO. While I understand that we all always want perfect stuff for as little money as possible, you are complaining about an issue that does not exist. That small fraction of exposed ground plane can never ever make contact in the slot.

No need to be sorry. This is encouraging. However, I contend that ordering the same product twice and getting a different result is an issue.

Also, no offense taken, but this isn't a matter me me trying to be cheap. I did a run of 10 HASL boards that came out perfect, but when I paid for 50 ENIG ones, it's kind of crappy to get a "worse" product that doesn't match what I approved. If I were truly trying to be cheap I would never have ordered ENIG ones anyway. Functional difference or not it's unsightly to me to have that exposed.

Here are the photos they emailed me back, showing the difference. First order:



Second order:



As you can see the first order is of much better detail/quality IMO. I'm glad it won't make a functional difference, but I still don't like it.

I use these when I need to fix solder mask. I have MG chemical one. They discontinued the part # I have and increased the price.
https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=overcoat pen

Nice, I appreciate it. I am due to order more solder soon anyway, and I like MG's stuff. Looks like a good thing to add to my workbench.

 

[Plasma]

I would not worry about it, the slot is only going to contact about 60% of the fingers. Even if it was shifted over completely, the socket contacts cannot reach the exposed ground.

It's annoying that the boards aren't the same, but they probably have a team of people making corrections. Whoever did the second round put in less attention to detail.

 

[skate323k137]

It's annoying that the boards aren't the same, but they probably have a team of people making corrections. Whoever did the second round put in less attention to detail.

Pretty much.

Thanks for the photos! I know there aren't mega carts (right now, probably a run soon), so I had considered a similar bank switch like the Survivors cart. In the end, for now, just running off an EPROM of each of my favorite games has been fine.

 

[skate323k137]

It's annoying that the boards aren't the same, but they probably have a team of people making corrections. Whoever did the second round put in less attention to detail.

They basically wrote me back and confirmed this. The 2 orders were done by different engineers, and even though they did things I didn't approve, they are unwilling to remake the order because of this. "We didn't add copper so deal with it" was pretty much their response. I'm glad you all think it's a minor issue, but I still wouldn't feel right selling these as anything but "factory seconds" or something. Very frustrating :/

If it were a bigger deal I could get my credit card company involved, since the screenshot of my approval doesn't have that exposed. I was definitely sent something that doesnt match what I was approved, but it is not worth it over this... more important things in life.

I usually use JLCPCB unless it's something like this were I am locked to a certain manufacturer. I use PCBway for cards with edge connectors because they have beveling options right on the easy order form. Does anyone know how to have JLCPCB chamfer edges?

 

[tom.storey]

but I still wouldn't feel right selling these as anything but "factory seconds" or something. Very frustrating :/

This is mountain out of mole hill level stuff. I think you're very much over reacting. Getting the CC company involved would be a huge deal too. PCBWay have delivered a perfectly electrically and mechanically functional product, and your concern is over something purely cosmetic.

Solder mask isn't intended for electrical isolation, only to stop solder going where it shouldn't. Especially so if it is mechanically disturbed, it can flake away exposing the copper underneath. If contacts of the socket were going to wipe that area there would be far greater concerns to be had.

Some professional boards have had little things like this on them too though, and have seemingly never caused anyone else any concern. For example, the Apple 1 motherboard has pieces of traces uncovered around the block of solder pads in the middle of the board.

Perhaps you can raise it with the designer if there is any way to contact them, and have them adjust the layout to be better suited to PCBs manufactured this way.

 

[skate323k137]

This is mountain out of mole hill level stuff. I think you're very much over reacting

You're entitled to that, and I do appreciate the input.

I think I made it pretty clear, but when a cheap HASL run comes out perfect, and you turn around and order a larger run of ENIG, it's not unreasonable to expect the correct thing. Yes they'll function, but for perspective, I worked in screen printing many years ago; I've seen people reject t-shirt orders over less. If the final product doesn't match the proof, you can't say "well the shirt still wears fine."

Your point is taken functionally; I have worked on and assembled many boards without perfect solder mask. Coincidentally, I have a framed Apple 1 repro PCB hanging on the wall, but that doesn’t mean I have to accept 1970s limitations and whatnot in manufacturing today.

Anyway, believe it or not, I went on a limb and asked if they would remake them properly if I covered shipping. They did. I'll offer the cosmetically flawed ones to members here when I get a moment.

Reaching out to the designer isn't a bad idea. If they fixed this then nobody else would have to deal with it, especially since the original design has solder mask covering the entire edge connector area. PCBway will flag that every time as an issue.

 

[skate323k137]

Getting the CC company involved would be a huge deal too

I'm well aware the implications of a charge back, for both parties. I didn't go there, however, I absolutely could have won the dispute if I wanted to be an (choice words) about it. But that's not me.