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ISA/DOS Sound cards and VIA Chipsets, what do I look for?

H

hunterjwizzard

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I've learned the hard way that Creative Labs cards do not play well with VIA chipsets. And I'm going to VCF SoCal next month, so hopefully I will get a chance to look for something better! I don't have a ton of money to spend, so what sorts of cards should I be looking for? I'm primarily concerned with compatibility. I've got a tin ear so they all sound alike to me anyway.
 
It's not that the CL cards don't play well, the VIA chipset itself is bugged. The 82C686B and the VT8231 are the most problematic ones and should be avoided.
 
Yes I know the problem is on the chipset side. But the motherboard I have comes from my very first self-build PC, saved for decades for this exact purpose. After giving it a lot of thought I've concluded I'd rather seek out a sound card that works with this motherboard rather than try to love a different motherboard quite so much.
 
If you have ISA slots, an AWE 64 should be fine. The bus corruption problem was really only an issue with SB Live!
 
I would choose an ESS AudioDrive over an AWE64 anytime. But maybe you want a high noise floor, hanging-notes bug on MIDI, crappy OPL3 emulation, and only mono sound for games that support SB Pro but not SB16.
 
I know it's controversial to dis ISA sound cards, but that's a path I wouldn't recommend outside of very specific circumstances. I stuck with an AWE32 longer than I should have because I wanted to retain direct-DOS-boot compatibility, but at some point an Ensoniq AudioPCI card that cost practically nothing fell into my hands and I went ahead and gave it a try. TL;DR, Windows and Linux were soooo much happier with it, with humanly-perceptible improvements in system responsiveness across the board whenever sound was playing in the background. Coincidentally enough I noticed similar improvements when I ditched the ISA SCSI card I was still using with my scanner for a PCI one; the system no longer periodically froze during scans.

As noted, something like an ESS card should be fine, it's really the Soundblaster Live that's (usually) the problem.
 
Timo W. said:
I would choose an ESS AudioDrive over an AWE64 anytime. But maybe you want a high noise floor, hanging-notes bug on MIDI, crappy OPL3 emulation, and only mono sound for games that support SB Pro but not SB16.
Click to expand...

The AWE 64 doesn't have the hanging note bug, nor any of the other problems you describe, the only exception being maybe the stereo vs mono thing, but I'd need to see evidence of that.

Here's an AWE 64 Gold compared to a Roland SC-55:

They sound very similar, with the AWE 64 having more of a reverb and chorus effect, but those can be toned down in the driver.
 
GiGaBiTe said:
If you have ISA slots, an AWE 64 should be fine. The bus corruption problem was really only an issue with SB Live!
Click to expand...

Oh see I'm finding it impossible to get an SB16 to work in there. The SB16 just doesn't play anything besides MIDI. I have an SB live in the machine right now and am having all sorts of issues, probably the hanging note bug as described.

Eudimorphodon said:
I know it's controversial to dis ISA sound cards, but that's a path I wouldn't recommend outside of very specific circumstances. I stuck with an AWE32 longer than I should have because I wanted to retain direct-DOS-boot compatibility, but at some point an Ensoniq AudioPCI card that cost practically nothing fell into my hands and I went ahead and gave it a try. TL;DR, Windows and Linux were soooo much happier with it, with humanly-perceptible improvements in system responsiveness across the board whenever sound was playing in the background. Coincidentally enough I noticed similar improvements when I ditched the ISA SCSI card I was still using with my scanner for a PCI one; the system no longer periodically froze during scans.

As noted, something like an ESS card should be fine, it's really the Soundblaster Live that's (usually) the problem.
Click to expand...

My goal is to be able to use this machine to play DOS games in addition to win98, and I'd like to not face any serious compatibility issues. My understanding is I can assure this by sticking with ISA. But I've had so gosh darn many issues with sound on this machine I'll take any ideas I can get.
 
hunterjwizzard said:
My goal is to be able to use this machine to play DOS games in addition to win98, and I'd like to not face any serious compatibility issues. My understanding is I can assure this by sticking with ISA.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of PCI soundcards that work perfectly well with DOS games in full-screen Windows 98 sessions. What's rare is PCI cards that work well when booted to native naked DOS, and that's the one edge case where having an ISA card makes sense if you have a slot for it, but... in that edge case there's actually nothing stopping you from having both an ISA card and a PCI sound card plugged in at once. (Or if your motherboard has onboard sound, just using the AC'97 codec you're getting for free. Again, probably heretical to say this, but as long as you have a decently fast CPU you probably don't need fancy sound hardware for Windows. There's a reason why fancy sound cards have essentially died out.) That "two sound cards plugged in at once" thing is actually what I did for a while with my ABIT BP6.

Exactly what VIA chipset motherboard are we talking about here? A lot of them from the Windows 98 era have an AC'97 codec built in. I have a VIA EPIA C3 thin client from around 2000 that for laughs I threw PC-DOS on and set up as if it were a very fast 486 and it actually works "mostly okay" for DOS gaming using the built-in sound chip, which has hardware Soundblaster Pro emulation for digital audio. (It does, unfortunately, require a 40K TSR to emulate OPL2 synth, and a purist would undoubtedly complain, a lot, about its accuracy, but it does *work*, after playing some weird evil games freeing up UMB space for said driver.) I have at least *thought* of installing Windows 98 on that system so I'd get a less rickety way to run the synth emulation for DOS games, but... ugh. It's been 20 years but I still break out in hives at the thought of opening up that can of worms again.
 
I have a Tyan Trinity 400 S1854 with no onboard sound, based on the VIA Apollo Pro133 chipset. "Mostly okay" is definitely my target performance level.
 
Is there any reason to believe a Sound Blaster AWE32 would work with my Via board? I have a very strange nerd-boner for any sound card with removable 72 pin RAM modules.
 
hunterjwizzard said:
Is there any reason to believe a Sound Blaster AWE32 would work with my Via board? I have a very strange nerd-boner for any sound card with removable 72 pin RAM modules.
Click to expand...

As an AWE32 owner, I'd say your boner is misplaced, but I guess if that's really a direction you want to go then... no, I'm not even going to look at eBay, I know they're going to be hideously expensive. And, again, in my opinion a bad choice for Windows.
 
I am aware. But come on, a good vintage PC build should make you feel like an excited teenager again. Awkward, misplaced boners are a crucial part of the teen experience.

But I will listen to your advice and not get one for a windows build.
 
Also, nitpick:

hunterjwizzard said:
with removable 72 pin RAM modules.
Click to expand...

It takes 30 pin SIMMs, not 72.

Maybe I just have a tin ear for digital synths but I don’t remember it sounding any better after swapping a pair of 1MB simms for 4MB ones and loading a larger SoundFont. Maybe something miraculous happens if you splurge for a pair of 16s but… yeah, I guess I’m not the one to hype this thing.
 
Eudimorphodon said:
Also, nitpick:



It takes 30 pin SIMMs, not 72.

Maybe I just have a tin ear for digital synths but I don’t remember it sounding any better after swapping a pair of 1MB simms for 4MB ones and loading a larger SoundFont. Maybe something miraculous happens if you splurge for a pair of 16s but… yeah, I guess I’m not the one to hype this thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I wasn't sure. I just know removable SIMMs on any board make me happy in a way I can't really explain. But my position is a vintage PC is about the way it makes you feel, not what it actually does.
 
I have an AWE32, got it years ago when they were cheap. Always thought it sounded like crap compared to Roland synths.
 
Plasma said:
I have an AWE32, got it years ago when they were cheap. Always thought it sounded like crap compared to Roland synths.
Click to expand...
Good to know, won't waste my money on one. I suspect they are more collectors items than useful now adays.
 
I used to wire a cheap Casio keyboard (about the cheapest you could get with a MIDI port) up and route DOOM's music through that. I'm not going to say it was "better" than the AWE32, but it it was a lot more fun than any sound card.
 
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