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Need help with my Apple Lisa 2/10 Widget drive

D

Divix

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
24
Just purchaced a Lisa 2/10 with a non-functioning Widget HD. When powered up goes through the paces and passes most of the checklist and then throws up "Error 82". I know this means it can't recognize the HD. The green lights do go on on the Widget boards. The very bottom board, the green light comes on at startup and then goes off. The top board, with I presume is the Widget controller board the green light continually flashes. The HD does not spin. I did notice the bottom board gets pretty warm to medium hot touch. Fan does operate. Does anyone know a remedy to diagnose or know where to start on this HD?

I do know the options of the emulator boards and such but would like to restore it to original factory condition. I also have a Profile thats waiting for a Parellel adaptor to see if it boots to OS.

cheers
 
The brake only applies to the voice coil arm. I have no idea why such an old document is wrong. I've seen someone else do it and while not recommended it seems that sometimes you gotta manually turn the spindle (either clockwise or counterclockwise. I don't remember but it didn't seem to hurt it) because the bearings are stiff. Failing that the motor controller might be bad. Then again if you are getting error 82 it could be something else that went dud and is preventing both spin-up and communication. Widgets hever had a good record for reliability.

Also, the internal widget cable can be used externally with a ProFile if you dig up a parallel port bulkhead from a PC and observe proper pin 1 keying.
EG0401-1-mainboard-parallel-port.jpg



Edited: If you have a DMM, would you be so kind as to tell me the pinout and voltages on the Widget power connector? I have been trying to find it for months.
 
Last edited:
>Widgets hever had a good record for reliability<
Correct.

>I do know the options of the emulator boards and such but would like to restore it to original factory condition.<
A dead Widget was a common "original factory condition".
 
NeXT said:
The brake only applies to the voice coil arm. I have no idea why such an old document is wrong. I've seen someone else do it and while not recommended it seems that sometimes you gotta manually turn the spindle (either clockwise or counterclockwise. I don't remember but it didn't seem to hurt it) because the bearings are stiff. Failing that the motor controller might be bad. Then again if you are getting error 82 it could be something else that went dud and is preventing both spin-up and communication. Widgets hever had a good record for reliability.

Also, the internal widget cable can be used externally with a ProFile if you dig up a parallel port bulkhead from a PC and observe proper pin 1 keying.
EG0401-1-mainboard-parallel-port.jpg



Edited: If you have a DMM, would you be so kind as to tell me the pinout and voltages on the Widget power connector? I have been trying to find it for months.
Click to expand...

Ok update:
I gave the spindle a little "push". It spun for 1 second than would not spin again. I could see the spindle "struggle" like if the brushless motor was cogging. I blew some compressed air in and around the spindle to free up any dust. The motor than finnally whirred to life. This computer has not fired up in probably 20 years or so. The lower card than became cool. The motor does squeek and shreek randomly. Now after the test it goes to the hourglass icon. Than sadly gives me a 10726 error. That means problem with boot tracks. Also it dumps a error code 85. That error came up as disk cannot keep up error. I might let it run for awile and maybe some of the grease will heat up and relubricate. I also have to get ahold of some software images and try a fresh install now. This computer came from a state prison in Utah.

@NeXT thanks for the tip :D If tested the power pins and voltages as follows,
left to right facing front of Widget
Solid orange (5.0v)
White with orange stripe (12.1v)
Green with yellow stripe (4.9v)
Black (Ground)
White with orange stripe (12.1v)
Black (ground)
Blank
White with blue stripe (-12.2v)

Hope that help

Cheers
 
Awesome. That confirms this scribble of a pinout is correct.

Your 10726 error is probably because of the 85 error. If a few hours running does not fix it you are probably having issues with the motor controller board.
 
NeXT said:
Awesome. That confirms this scribble of a pinout is correct.

Your 10726 error is probably because of the 85 error. If a few hours running does not fix it you are probably having issues with the motor controller board.
Click to expand...

Ill probably run it overnight. Also do you know which board is the motor controller board? There are a few boards for the Widget online. The error now starts with 10726 at start up. Then if continued goes to the 85 error. At least it sounds like a lisa for now. :D

Cheers,
 
Underside of the drive next to the spindle motor. Has a COP421 chip but if the drive is powered and does not spin the ULN-2074B gets really hot. I believe it receives timing from the transducer (DO NOT UNSCREW THIS) and from there controls the speed of the drive.
 
NeXT said:
Underside of the drive next to the spindle motor. Has a COP421 chip but if the drive is powered and does not spin the ULN-2074B gets really hot. I believe it receives timing from the transducer (DO NOT UNSCREW THIS) and from there controls the speed of the drive.
Click to expand...

Yeah thats what I thought. I found a few spares on ebay so ill change out the board and see what happens from there. Im really going to try not to change anything out on this other than a board as I don't have any specs or manuals yet. Do you have any links to a service manual for the Widget drive? Also ive been looking around for anyone who does LLF nowadays and have read its extinct on the Widget but that was a few years ago. The parallel card should be here hopefully tomorrow and pray it might boot to OS off the profile drive. Thanks NeXT :D
 
NeXT said:
The brake only applies to the voice coil arm. I have no idea why such an old document is wrong. I've seen someone else do it and while not recommended it seems that sometimes you gotta manually turn the spindle (either clockwise or counterclockwise. I don't remember but it didn't seem to hurt it) because the bearings are stiff. Failing that the motor controller might be bad. Then again if you are getting error 82 it could be something else that went dud and is preventing both spin-up and communication. Widgets hever had a good record for reliability.

Also, the internal widget cable can be used externally with a ProFile if you dig up a parallel port bulkhead from a PC and observe proper pin 1 keying.
EG0401-1-mainboard-parallel-port.jpg



Edited: If you have a DMM, would you be so kind as to tell me the pinout and voltages on the Widget power connector? I have been trying to find it for months.
Click to expand...

Got the Widget to Profile adaptor cable finnaly, connected the Profile 5MB drive and the Lisa has come back to life :D It booted to Macworks Plus. I relubricated the floppy drive (Cage was forzen) and that now reads and writes once again. The stupid problem now is I copied a few apps over to the Lisa such as disk copy and Dart. Disc copy had worked but Dart had crashed the Machine with a Bomb error can't remember the code. Now trying to reboot the Lisa. The Lisa passes all the checks, goes to Loading....., beeps, then to the mac with the smiling face then circles back to the testing and repeats over and over on a loop now in that order. Does anyone know how to stop the cycle and get back to the OS?
 
If you see the "Happy Mac", then MW+ is loading OK from the profile. Sounds like you mucked up the system folder on the HFS volume. You will need to boot to a floppy to fix this. If you only have the original 400K drive this is tricky, since the boot disk must be 400K MFS formatted yet have a minimal System 6.02 on it (this is not common, sun had a special version for this). Hold down the left "option" key (or is it the "apple" key, or is it the right "option" key, I can't remember what one for MW+, it's one of the keys) once you see the MW+ message on the screen and she will wait for a floppy boot instead of tying to boot the off the profile. Use also must have 1 meg of RAM installed to run MW+. FYI, system folders older than 6.0 and newer than 6.03 will not work with MW+.
Rick
 
lisa2 said:
If you see the "Happy Mac", then MW+ is loading OK from the profile. Sounds like you mucked up the system folder on the HFS volume. You will need to boot to a floppy to fix this. If you only have the original 400K drive this is tricky, since the boot disk must be 400K MFS formatted yet have a minimal System 6.02 on it (this is not common, sun had a special version for this). Hold down the left "option" key (or is it the "apple" key, or is it the right "option" key, I can't remember what one for MW+, it's one of the keys) once you see the MW+ message on the screen and she will wait for a floppy boot instead of tying to boot the off the profile. Use also must have 1 meg of RAM installed to run MW+. FYI, system folders older than 6.0 and newer than 6.03 will not work with MW+.
Rick
Click to expand...

This is the exact problem Im having. The Macworks plus manual does say hold option, insert Macworks Plus system disk and when once in the OS, replace the system folder with the one on the hard drive. Problem hopefully solved. Also will my 400k drive work with Macworks plus system disk? A 800k one required? There is a copy of Macworks plus on Mothership but Diskcopy 4.2 will not see it and Im having problems making a disk. Ive tried Dart as well. Do you know of any other utility that could work? I havent tried a later version of Disc copy yet. I have a geniune copy of regular Macworks coming in the mail and may just try to downgrade if possible. Also what OS do you use in your Lisa that you are happy with? I may start a thread about this later. Thanks!

Cheers,
 
Forget about "regular MacWorks", it won't help you save what's on the profile (it doesn't support HFS volumes). Even if you reformat and install MW XL, you end up suck in 1984 with the non-HFS 64K mac rom, and a very early system and finder. It might boot to impress your friends but it's not as useful as MW+ can be.

A SS 400K system 6 boot disk can't be done. The system file is ~330K and the finder file is ~120K. Together they just don't fit.

Here is how SUN did it. There are 3 disks (for the MacOS side of MW+). "MW+ Install 400K", "MW+ System A", and MW+ System B". Once the MW+ environment is up, you boot the MW+ install disk 1st. The trick here is that this disk does not have System 6 on it (won't fit), it boots a tweaked version of system 5. Once booted to the MacOS, you eject the disk and put in the System A disk, copy the files to the system folder on the profile and then do the same with the system B disk. Eject and reboot to the profile and you are all good.

I have disk copy images of the disks, do you have the tools to make real disks out of them?? You would need a older mac running system 7 or less and a way to un-stuff them and get the images from the internet into the old mac.

Rick
 
lisa2 said:
Forget about "regular MacWorks", it won't help you save what's on the profile (it doesn't support HFS volumes). Even if you reformat and install MW XL, you end up suck in 1984 with the non-HFS 64K mac rom, and a very early system and finder. It might boot to impress your friends but it's not as useful as MW+ can be.

A SS 400K system 6 boot disk can't be done. The system file is ~330K and the finder file is ~120K. Together they just don't fit.

Here is how SUN did it. There are 3 disks (for the MacOS side of MW+). "MW+ Install 400K", "MW+ System A", and MW+ System B". Once the MW+ environment is up, you boot the MW+ install disk 1st. The trick here is that this disk does not have System 6 on it (won't fit), it boots a tweaked version of system 5. Once booted to the MacOS, you eject the disk and put in the System A disk, copy the files to the system folder on the profile and then do the same with the system B disk. Eject and reboot to the profile and you are all good.

I have disk copy images of the disks, do you have the tools to make real disks out of them?? You would need a older mac running system 7 or less and a way to un-stuff them and get the images from the internet into the old mac.

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick,
Thanks for the info. I bought the Macworks XL disks as a last hope to get software other than having to just buy the Xprofile emualtor card because Im having trouble making disks from images on the net. I have 4 older macs Ive been using via-zip drives to get data from my modern Mac Pro. They are as follows,
1. (Mac SE) has the older non-HF drive but reads the Zip drive (OS 6)
2. (Mac classic 1) with the HF floppy drive (OS 7)
3. (IIsi) OS 7
4 (Powermac G4) OS 9
Also have been reading some excellent information out there from http://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html, and Tezz's site. There is some information making Install and boot discs from images using Disc copy 4.2 and Dart. I just can't find some good images for Macworks Plus. If you can help me get that software that would be great! At some point I would like to get another profile drive or get the Widget drive working and install the original Lisa operating system so I could switch back and forth if I wished. I belive I have some older stuffit apps somewhere. Its good my Dad didn't throw anything away in the early 90's :D

Cheers,
 
lisa2 said:
Forget about "regular MacWorks", it won't help you save what's on the profile (it doesn't support HFS volumes). Even if you reformat and install MW XL, you end up suck in 1984 with the non-HFS 64K mac rom, and a very early system and finder. It might boot to impress your friends but it's not as useful as MW+ can be.

A SS 400K system 6 boot disk can't be done. The system file is ~330K and the finder file is ~120K. Together they just don't fit.

Here is how SUN did it. There are 3 disks (for the MacOS side of MW+). "MW+ Install 400K", "MW+ System A", and MW+ System B". Once the MW+ environment is up, you boot the MW+ install disk 1st. The trick here is that this disk does not have System 6 on it (won't fit), it boots a tweaked version of system 5. Once booted to the MacOS, you eject the disk and put in the System A disk, copy the files to the system folder on the profile and then do the same with the system B disk. Eject and reboot to the profile and you are all good.

I have disk copy images of the disks, do you have the tools to make real disks out of them?? You would need a older mac running system 7 or less and a way to un-stuff them and get the images from the internet into the old mac.

Rick
Click to expand...

So I cleaned the stepper motor shaft on my 400k drive with some WD40 and relubricated the shaft with some Tri-Flow clear synthetic grease. The Drive now runs perfect! I was expecting the head was lagging from the old sticky grease on the cork screw shaft. So anyways I can boot with regular Macworks and can Boot Reg Macworks into Macworks Plus on my Profile drive. I can see the Drive Icon once again. I DO NOT want to install Macworks just yet as I am searching for Macworks Plus system disks. I may need the 800k drive for it to work. I broke down and bought one along with the EPROM's that should be here in a few days. But anyways Im excited that My lisa is finnally getting data from the drive and looks like it should be functional. I also tried to reformat my Widget drive via MW but it would give me a fail error. Ill do some more research on that. A Program called Hard disc mount that I cant find would be nice, or to double reformat the HD starting fom Lisa OS to Macworks XL.

Cheers,

Nick
 
Here are my MW+ disk images (Diskcopy 4.2, 400K versions):

http://www.lisa2.com/MWPlus.zip

The download is modern zip file that you can uncompress on your MacPro. To use the images you will have to use ResEdit to reset the file type as 'dImg' and the creator as 'dCpy'. I am sure others on this board can help you with that if you need it. Any mac with a floppy that can run disk copy 4.2 should work fine these disks (for example I used a Umax PowerMac Clone), you should not have to transfer the images all the way back to a non-superdrive mac just to make the disks. I make lisa disks on the newer macs all the time, this should not be a problem as long as you use diskcopy 4.2, and the proper type of disks.

Rick
 
Divix said:
Rick,
Thanks for the info. I bought the Macworks XL disks as a last hope to get software other than having to just buy the Xprofile emualtor card ....
Click to expand...

You should buy a X/Profile. I have two, they are amazing, the old profile/widget drives are as Steve Jobs would say "a bag of hurt". Also the guy who designed the X/Profile (James) is a Lisa Genius!
Rick
 
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