OK all you XP diehards...

[commodorejohn]

Okay, let me amend that: it's never, ever important for filenames in any case other than cases where someone has decided to create a dependency on it because they can't be bothered to come up with a more sensible way to solve the problem.

 

[Tor]

What kind of system can you come up with that is more sensible than what's already there right in front of you: A full set of capital letters and a full set of lowercase letters. You can use this to create a naturally sorted list of files or whatever.
And I would like to hear about something that could replace the elegant, simple, fully functional, low-hassle system that the *nix Make tool uses for giving the developer an easy way to modify the build system with no permanent damage. Using the same filename with simply linking the priority to the first letter is genious. An alternative would be to have the alternative filename being something different, and who would remember what that is? It's good, that's what it is.
And I never run into any _problems_ caused by case sensitive file systems either. I just don't. And let me re-state that I originally came from a case-insensitive place and thought that was better. That opinion didn't last long though.

-Tor

 

[Ole Juul]

Okay, let me amend that: it's never, ever important in any case other than cases where someone has decided to create a dependency on it because they can't be bothered to come up with a more sensible way to solve the problem.

I have not created a dependency because I "can't be bothered to come up with a more sensible way to solve the problem". For one thing, there is no problem. You may think otherwise, but suggesting that I cannot come up with a "more sensible way" is rude of you.

I haven't created a dependency at all. I am simply using a wider naming vocabulary than I would if I were to use "unicase". I am taking advantage of what is offered to me. I am quite happy to live within the "sensible" limitations of the DOS file system, for example, but in other environments I have the possibility of being creative in other ways.

And if you want to take me on with more of your rudeness, I'm more than ready. I'll see you in the alley!

 

[commodorejohn]

A "naturally sorted" list of files would not be sorted with regards to case, because nobody sorts any other kind of list of alphanumeric items with regard to case. The only reason anybody thinks this is "natural" is because they've gotten the ASCII table drilled into their head so hard that they've forgotten that the numbers signify the letters and not the other way around. If ASCII had put the small letters first Unix-heads would be arguing that it was "natural" to sort filenames that way.

As for make, here's my sensible alternative: don't make it dependent on a specific filename at all. That's stupid. Have it take the name of the makefile as a command-line argument like a normal program would. That way you can have as many alternate makefiles as you want and name them whatever makes sense to you and it won't matter whether you're on a case-sensitive OS or not.

 

[vwestlife]

I for one do use the case sensitivity to good effect. Its use is even built-in to one of the most used tools out there: GNU Make.
It first looks for a file called 'makefile' (actually it looks for another one before that but that's not important), and after that it looks for a file called 'Makefile'. And this is very good. All source distributions, or at least any meant for Unix, comes with, or generates a file called 'Makefile'.
So when I want to make a temporary hack change (like linking with ElectricFence to catch malloc errors) I don't modify Makefile, I make a copy which I call 'makefile' and make my changes there. Now Make will pick up that one instead.
A simple 'git status' will easily show me all the directories where I have installed this local 'makefile'. And it's immediately clear what's going on.

Can't do that with case-insensitive file systems. And that's just one use. Case-sensitivity is good.

Linux was written by programmers for programmers, and it shows. In programming, if you get one character wrong, the compiler will spit out an error and your program won't work. Thus, programmers are accustomed to needing to get it perfect or else they'll be presented with a cryptic error message that blames them for getting it wrong but doesn't give any help on how to fix the problem. So, they write the operating system to act the same way.

Remember, back in the 1970s and 1980s it was enough of a battle just to drill it into people's heads that computers don't like it when you type a lowercase L instead of a 1 or an uppercase O instead of a zero (as people who learned how to type on manual typewriters were used to doing). Now is it really worth the hassle to force people to remember that their computer is case-sensitive when it comes to saving and opening files? They already have enough hassle dealing with case-sensitive passwords! (And at least Windows warns you if you've left Caps Lock on when you're about to type a password -- I almost got locked out of my company's FedEx account when I didn't realize that the last person who used the computer had left Caps Lock on and I was wondering why FedEx's web site wasn't accepting the password!)

 

[Caluser2000]

You mean so say the Caps Lock led on the keyboard wasn't a clue? Something an experienced computer user should be well aware of no matter what OS you are running.

 

[commodorejohn]

I have not created a dependency because I "can't be bothered to come up with a more sensible way to solve the problem". For one thing, there is no problem. You may think otherwise, but suggesting that I cannot come up with a "more sensible way" is rude of you.

I haven't created a dependency at all. I am simply using a wider naming vocabulary than I would if I were to use "unicase". I am taking advantage of what is offered to me. I am quite happy to live within the "sensible" limitations of the DOS file system, for example, but in other environments I have the possibility of being creative in other ways.

And if you want to take me on with more of your rudeness, I'm more than ready. I'll see you in the alley!

I'm seriously not trying to be rude here, it's just that the arguments for case-sensitivity basically come down to "this needless, unintuitive complexity is necessary because otherwise the processes I've developed to depend on needless, unintuitive complexity wouldn't work." I'm not saying you or anybody else personally are dumb, but seriously, that is a dumb argument.

And anyway: pot and kettle, mister. If we're going to get all uppity about rudeness, you've made at least two statements just in this thread that Windows is an OS for stupid people, and by extension, Windows users are idiots. Charming.

 

[Ole Juul]

You mean so say the Caps Lock led on the keyboard wasn't a clue? Something an experienced computer user should be well aware of no mater what OS you are running.

Well, presumably he learned from his mistake. I've been there, done that, had to call the server folks, and now I check the LED subconsciously.

 

[Caluser2000]

You'd hope so. At work the passwords get reset after a period of time so the server folk don't get bombbarded by stupid users Go on, ask me how I knownfire:

There's going to be no winners in this "discussion" anyway. Just accept *nix and Windows are different and move along.

Kindly bought to you by the letters X & P - the best EOL NT based OS put out by MS to date.

 

[Ole Juul]

I'm seriously not trying to be rude here, . . .

Thanks.

. . . it's just that the arguments for case-sensitivity basically come down to "this needless, unintuitive complexity is necessary because otherwise the processes I've developed to depend on needless, unintuitive complexity wouldn't work." I'm not saying you or anybody else personally are dumb, but seriously, that is a dumb argument.

I'm not seeing this as an argument about operating systems, but about whether one should, or should not, take advantage of what is offered. Certainly, speaking for myself, I don't write operating systems, so I just make the best of what I can get my hands on and use it in whatever creative ways I can come up with that work for me. That said, I do appreciate some elbow room. For example in DOS I may use ASCII 255 (space) for a file or directory name, along with my favourite ASCII 176-8 (dotted blocks). However I would agree that typing (in *nix) "List\ of\ Prospectors\ for\ Granite\ Creek.xlsx" is certainly a pain. That's where a GUI comes in handy, in which case it doesn't matter if it's upper case, lower case, or .jpg. I tend to avoid spaces in file names for that reason.

And anyway: pot and kettle, mister. If we're going to get all uppity about rudeness, you've made at least two statements just in this thread that Windows is an OS for stupid people, and by extension, Windows users are idiots. Charming.

I usually make a point of not criticizing an OS or its users, but I'll take your word for it that I did. If you're referring to my comment about Microsoft "underestimating the intelligence of their market", that is just the opposite. Regarding MS-Windows, I'm sure it's a fine OS and the number of professional users would attest to that. I would expect nothing less from something that costs money and is developed by such a large company. Nevertheless, I do criticize Microsoft as a company. That is quite different. People use any particular OS for their own reasons, I can't comment on the validity of those reasons.

 

[SpidersWeb]

In this house, I use Linux for servers. Windows for desktops. Apple for tablets and phone, and we have games consoles.
I like to use what I feel is the best tool for the job.

I do think MS has been pretty bad with understanding their customer base though.

 

[Caluser2000]

I like to use what I feel is the best tool for the job.

That is all that really matters at the end of the day.

 

[Tor]

As for make, here's my sensible alternative: don't make it dependent on a specific filename at all. That's stupid. Have it take the name of the makefile as a command-line argument like a normal program would. That way you can have as many alternate makefiles as you want and name them whatever makes sense to you and it won't matter whether you're on a case-sensitive OS or not.

You _can_ specify a name for the Makefile. Of course. It's just that it's only useful for the single build case, when you're sitting in that one directory and building your one component, interactively.
How would you go about doing a full, non-interactive build of a tree with perhaps a thousand modules? If you had to specify the name of the makefile for every directory? And if you wanted to override that for some components?
As it is currently implemented you simply start a recursive make at the top directory. And if you put in a lower-case 'makefile' here and there that will be taken automatically into account too.

See, the designers actually did think things through.

In any case, I've yet to hear a Unix user of more than a few months complain about case-sensitivity. You have all the tools you need to ignore case when you need to, as well. It is _not_ a problem. There are certainly issues with moving users from other operating systems to *nix, but in my ~25-year experience of doing exactly that, case-sensivity has not been a problem.

-Tor

 

[vwestlife]

In any case, I've yet to hear a Unix user of more than a few months complain about case-sensitivity. You have all the tools you need to ignore case when you need to, as well. It is _not_ a problem. There are certainly issues with moving users from other operating systems to *nix, but in my ~25-year experience of doing exactly that, case-sensivity has not been a problem.

How many of these users have no programming experience?

 

[SpidersWeb]

How many of these users have no programming experience?

I don't think someone without programming experience would be manually typing in file names No need with a GUI.

But it's a valid point on the whole. One thing that always concerned me about recommending Linux to beginners is in the event of something going wrong. See with Windows I can say "just call Microsoft" or send them to a forum and get easy solutions. But with Linux a large number of the enthusiasts expect a certain level of knowledge and with so many distributions, you often have to translate the instructions to be relevant to your platform. Not a problem for me, but it's enough to make me hesitant to recommend to beginners.

 

[Tor]

How many of these users have no programming experience?

Nearly none. Maybe five. That's not much of a point though - the discussion is about if case-sensitivity makes sense or not. For Unix it does. In any case, those non-programmers I 'converted' (including my father) are not really exposed to this anyway, as has been pointed out many times already - they don't use the command line.

-Tor

 

[vwestlife]

Nearly none. Maybe five. That's not much of a point though

It is a point. People with programming experience know not to be sloppy, or else their code won't work. Linux is picky that way too. It doesn't matter what kind of GUI you put on top of it; it's still a picky, programmer-oriented operating system. A lot of people simply don't have that kind of patience and discipline when it comes to computers -- and that's one thing Microsoft and Apple have accommodated with their operating systems; they've built in a certain amount of leeway that people have grown accustomed to.

And none of that will really matter anyway, unless the Linux community gets their act together and starts writing video drivers that actually work correctly! Not everyone has time to deal with bugs like this:

 

[commodorejohn]

Exactly. Linux has no slack whatsoever for non-techie users or users who don't want to deal with techy stuff all the time, because Linux developers don't think that that's remotely important (and when they do they always, always miss the point entirely and conclude that putting a friendly-looking Mac-or-Windows face on the same exacting, arcane complexity is what normal users want,) which is why the Linux userbase is almost entirely programmers and has never made significant headway in getting broader appeal.

 

[Caluser2000]

I've just installed an old distro(Sarge based) on this old Deskpro EN hooked up to a cheap TV and it doesn't look too shabby. Everything was setup duing the installation process, but I've done a few minor changes here n there to suit my tastes.

See if you can guess which one it is? Clue on the desktop. A hobby of mine is collecting old boxed set distros.

 

[Tor]

[..] which is why the Linux userbase is almost entirely programmers and has never made significant headway in getting broader appeal.

So Android doesn't count?

-Tor