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The end of the market on 5170s

Floppies_only

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Gang,

It seems like there are plenty of IBM PC/ATs on ebay, but that they all seem to be marked up and/or not running/missing drives, etc. Does anybody remember seeing a decent AT with extended memory selling there or elsewhere anytime recently, like the last two years? I remember that bigdmclean used to sell them for $399 (you can buy a new computer for that much now).

I'm interested in running windows 3.1 on one. I've read someone on the forums saying that was a bad combination, but I used to have a clone 286 with 8 megabytes of memory and it ran works for windows fine - it was just a little slow to start a new program.

Thanks,
Sean
 
I ran Windows 3.1 on my Compaq 286/SLT laptop for years, with 2.5 MB RAM. It wasn't a speed demon, but it got the job done, and was used for many school projects! My first laptop, so anything was better than nothing. I used to run Windows 3.1 for Workgroups on my IBM PC/ATs when I had two up that I used regularly -- it still had support for Hercules mono graphics, which was good because both of my ATs came with 5151 monitors. A NE2000 clone card let me connect to my Windows 95/98 desktop shares.

Incidentally, if you need to run WFW 3.11 with Hercules graphics, you can install WFW 3.1 and then do an upgrade. It will use the old drivers with the new installation.

Do ATs really sell for that much? I figured they wouldn't, unless they were just in absolutely perfect factory condition, due to the shipping charges you'd get with such heavy machines.
 
IBM was pushing the PS/2 line when the AT was out so they probably didn't make as many 286 AT systems as they did the PX/XT.

I have seen nice IBM AT systems on ebay, but they seem to be too expensive. No idea if they sell at those prices, but the odds of finding mint condition AT's at garage sales are pretty low these days. The 286 chip is not favorite anyway.
 
IBM was pushing the PS/2 line when the AT was out so they probably didn't make as many 286 AT systems as they did the PX/XT.

I have seen nice IBM AT systems on ebay, but they seem to be too expensive. No idea if they sell at those prices, but the odds of finding mint condition AT's at garage sales are pretty low these days. The 286 chip is not favorite anyway.

Yes, with a 386 you can do multitasking with windows. The thing that confuses me is why the PCs and XTs all have nice paint but the ATs look like they've been dragged behind a wagon.

The PS/2s are on ebay, but there don't seem to be any with enough memory and the reference disks seem scarce.

It's hard to collect IBM.

Thanks,
Sean
 

My "Saved Searches" found those, too. The second one looks O.K., but it's probably got only 512K of memory and I'll even bet the CMOS battery is dead and the hard drive heads aren't parked.

But I think I'll bid on it.

Sean
 
I really can't figure out why most of the ATs are in such lousy condition either. It took me a very long time to obtain a really nice AT case. My first 2 or 3 ATs were beaten to hell.
 
I think that perhaps you're not looking hard enough--or you're not willing to spend the money

The 5170 was a miserable attempt by IBM to come out with a 286 box. The first ones were 6MHz and used an oddball DRAM chip (piggybacked 64K chips) and were promptly overclocked to 8MHz by many customers (check a 1985 copy of PCWeek for ads for replacement crystals). It ran fine at 8MHz. IBM responded by putting a speed check test in the model 239 BIOS that refused to boot if the CPU didn't clock close to 6MHz. The 339 should have been the real product, with an 8MHz CPU and commodity 256K DRAM chips, but it was too late. The very tall PC-AT expansion cards didn't help either--nobody really wanted a huge tall box on the desktop. Aftermarket deskside stands got to be very popular, putting the machine where it would be sure to suck in all the crud off the floor.

IBM eventually responded with the sleek PS/2, but queered the game by trying to re-assert control of the market with a proprietary bus. They practically gift-wrapped the market and handed it to the clone makers. It was an incredible lack of insight from a company that was previously known for their marketing savvy.
 
The ATs certainly do get beat up, probably because they are very heavy. At least the case and bezel are painted and so don't turn yellow.
It took me four ATs to get two tidy ones just 6 years ago, and now I have only one left in my collection - a type 2 with the plastic back cover and the equally-rare key.
Floppies_only said:
and the hard drive heads aren't parked.
FYI, the hard disk may park mechanically if it's a voice coil type that seems to be common to the full-height Seagate drives.
It's hard to collect IBM.
Perhaps, but only recently and at least these models have historic significance despite not being technically on the cutting edge.
 

Who, me? I'm the guy who snipes with outrageous bids on ebay. I'm just a little...short...right now, due to afore mentioned activity.

Aftermarket deskside stands got to be very popular, putting the machine where it would be sure to suck in all the crud off the floor.

[Grin]

IBM eventually responded with the sleek PS/2, but queered the game by trying to re-assert control of the market with a proprietary bus. They practically gift-wrapped the market and handed it to the clone makers. It was an incredible lack of insight from a company that was previously known for their marketing savvy.

That micro channel architecture bus was ahead of it's time. It was designed to handle higher bus speeds in anticipation of faster CPUs. The clone makers did come out with improvements on the IDE bus, but they made there own standard, and now Lenovo computers are clunky looking things that are made in China.

How about that Steve Jobs, though?

Sean
 
Perhaps, but only recently and at least these models have historic significance despite not being technically on the cutting edge.

Well, if it's only recently it could be because of the recession. The going rate might be low enough that sellers are hanging on to their IBM iron. Or it could be that attrition due to electronic failures is removing the available supply. Or it could be that collectors have snapped most of them up. Or a combination of the above. I suspect that the supply is not going to get any better.

By the way, this is a side note, but if it turns out that I don't enjoy writing my book I intend to abandon the project and sell most of my computers. So there could be quite a bit of stuff coming on line, as I find that I make a lot of mistakes while typing due to poor concentration (I'm a vet with PTSD). But I might try to trade the lot of it for an IBM PGA monitor first. Fat chance, right?

Sean
 
IBM eventually responded with the sleek PS/2, but queered the game by trying to re-assert control of the market with a proprietary bus. They practically gift-wrapped the market and handed it to the clone makers. It was an incredible lack of insight from a company that was previously known for their marketing savvy.

But ironically, the clones eventually adopted nearly all of the innovations of the PS/2 line: "PS/2" keyboard and mouse connectors; VGA, XGA, and 8514/A video standards; SIMMs; 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks; a 32-bit "plug and play" bus (albeit in the form of PCI); toolless cases with snap-in drive bays; motherboards with integrated I/O ports and drive controllers; etc. etc.

The main problem with the PS/2 lineup was not its innovations, but rather its lack of backwards compatibility. Initially only the low-end 8086 and 286 models were offered with the ISA bus (many more were added later), and on most models, a 5.25" floppy drive was an ungainly and expensive external add-on. Plus, the high-end MCA models dissuaded existing PC-AT users from considering them as an upgrade path by being gut-wrenchingly expensive (well into the five-figure range on fully equipped systems) and incompatible with virtually all of their existing hardware.

Of course IBM also royally screwed up by putting excessively tight restrictions and high fees on licensing the MCA bus to the clone makers, resulting in only a handful of them (Tandy and NCR... who else?) ever adopting it.
 
That last one, is what, IMOHO cost IBM big. I think some suits decided that the way to kill the competition was the old "lock in" game, which worked for many mainframe vendors, but not for PCs.

The PS/2s had some sound ergonomics and were easy to disassemble and reassemble. Compare the PS/2 with the 5170 and it becomes pretty obvious.

Oddly, we're still stuck with the 5150 bracket scheme. I wonder why PCI didn't make a move to something more user-friendly. At least iIt wasn't as bad as something like, say, S100 or Unibus, where you could tear the bejeezus out of your hands getting a card out.
 
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Of course IBM also royally screwed up by putting excessively tight restrictions and high fees on licensing the MCA bus to the clone makers, resulting in only a handful of them (Tandy and NCR... who else?) ever adopting it.

Yes indeed. I know PCs Limited (Dell before it was Dell) announced an MCA machine but I don't know if they ever shipped it. And if they shipped it, I don't know how many people actually bought one.

That last one, is what, IMOHO cost IBM big. I think some suits decided that the way to kill the competition was the old "lock in" game, which worked for many mainframe vendors, but not for PCs.

It did. In 1995, when I was selling computers at retail, a lot of people wouldn't even look at IBM. Microchannel was history except for in some of its server hardware, but if I said "IBM," they would say, "Don't those use those really expensive cards that don't work in anybody else's computers?" Even when I'd show them that the slots were the same in the IBM as in the Compaq and Dell computers sitting right next to it, most people still weren't interested, even when the price was competitive. Microchannel cost IBM a lot of trust, and they never really did lose that perception of being proprietary and overly expensive.
 
Microchannel cost IBM a lot of trust, and they never really did lose that perception of being proprietary and overly expensive.

Perhaps the one thing that did save them was their exceptional line of ThinkPad laptops, and strong support from the business and institutional market (likely due to restrictive "IBM-only" contracts).

On the consumer side, however, they went through a series of mostly unsuccessful desktop lineups: PS/1 (1990-1994), PS/ValuePoint (1992-1995), Ambra (1993-1994), PC Series (1994-2000), and finally Aptiva (1994-2001).

It also didn't help that Microsoft punished IBM for buying out Lotus and producing a competitor to Microsoft Office, by charging IBM higher prices and witholding them the OEM license for Windows 95 until after the clone makers were already shipping Windows 95 systems.
 
Once the clones came out there was nothing IBM could do to keep from losing most of its market share. You can say the PS/2 line killed off their home market, but that is the market the clones were going to own anyway. The PS/2 line at least gave corperate buyers the idea they were getting better designed and built machines then what the clones offered (well until EISA came along).
 
Perhaps the one thing that did save them was their exceptional line of ThinkPad laptops, and strong support from the business and institutional market (likely due to restrictive "IBM-only" contracts).

On the consumer side, however, they went through a series of mostly unsuccessful desktop lineups: PS/1 (1990-1994), PS/ValuePoint (1992-1995), Ambra (1993-1994), PC Series (1994-2000), and finally Aptiva (1994-2001).

It also didn't help that Microsoft punished IBM for buying out Lotus and producing a competitor to Microsoft Office, by charging IBM higher prices and witholding them the OEM license for Windows 95 until after the clone makers were already shipping Windows 95 systems.

Indeed. Now that you mention it, people would come in and ask for ThinkPads by name. But given the price disparity between desktops and laptops at the time, we didn't move nearly as many laptops. To overcome that trust factor, IBM had to make something that was literally 3x as good as anything else on the market and they just never figured out how to do that on the desktop.

And yes, the antagonistic relationship with Microsoft definitely hurt matters too--it made it hard for IBM to keep prices competitive. I still think IBM should have called OS/2 Warp "OS/2 Chicago" when Windows 95 was delayed. Microsoft would have sued, but they had no trademark on the name. IBM would have had bigger legal concerns from the pop band than from Microsoft. But that's a whole other can of worms there.

Once the clones came out there was nothing IBM could do to keep from losing most of its market share. You can say the PS/2 line killed off their home market, but that is the market the clones were going to own anyway. The PS/2 line at least gave corperate buyers the idea they were getting better designed and built machines then what the clones offered (well until EISA came along).

You're right, IBM never completely figured out the home market. But even once they came in with a competitive product at a competitive price (the PCjr was neither, but the PS/1s and Aptivas were competitive with Dell and Compaq on price and capability), it still didn't catch on. Had IBM conceded in the late 1980s that they would have to share the market, phased Microchannel in (the way PCI ultimately was phased in) and charged less costly royalties on it, things could have turned out a lot differently for them. The perception of IBM being proprietary was what kept us from selling IBMs. I sold a lot more Compaqs, Dells, and HPs than I did Packard Bells, because they were much better quality machines and I didn't want to sell junk. (I got in trouble for it sometimes, but rather than push Packard Bell, I just got more subtle.) I did manage to sell more IBMs than most of my coworkers, but it was an uphill battle.

It is kind of hard to blame IBM though, in a way. Their mainframe strategy had been very successful, so you would expect them to repeat the strategies that worked in the past. IBM is out of the PC market now, but they're one of many companies who can say the same thing. Not many companies did get it right.
 
True, that IBM might well have started with a PS/2 model with, say 4 ISA slots and 2 Microchannel slots. Yes, I know that the idea is abhorrent to technical purists, but it might have gotten customers asking for the MCA cards as gradual upgrades. That "all or nothing" with MCA really hurt.
 
True, that IBM might well have started with a PS/2 model with, say 4 ISA slots and 2 Microchannel slots. Yes, I know that the idea is abhorrent to technical purists, but it might have gotten customers asking for the MCA cards as gradual upgrades. That "all or nothing" with MCA really hurt.

AFAIK, nobody ever made a combo MCA/ISA (or MCA/anything else) motherboard, but there were quite a few "flipover" MCA/ISA expansion cards.
 
Considering MCA sound cards were always rare I can't see a person buying one for home if they want to play games and do work. If IBM did what Apple did and sold machines with built in sound they would have sold many more. Besides most cheap MCA systems had like 3 or 4 slots total and one was taken by the storage controller, only the big tower servers had more slots and they were $10K+ (or the Model 90 desktop).

A MCA+ISA bus would not realy work in getting people to upgrade to MCA cards since most MCA cards were SCSI, Tokenring, networking, or generic VGA and cost a fortune. People would have just used ISA or junked the machine for VLB.
 
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