TX or TL?

[Great Hierophant]

I am interested in obtaining a Tandy 1000 TX or a Tandy 1000 TL. Naturally, I will be using this system for gaming, so I am trying to determine the advantages and disadvantages of each. Here is what I came up with:

Tandy TL supports 101 Key Keyboards, Tandy TX's support is iffy for anything other than 90 Key Tandy keyboard. Old software may expect the Tandy keyboard to be used, however.

Tandy TX has composite video support, Tandy TL would need a separate CGA card, but supports Hercules monochrome graphics & text.

Tandy TL has MSDOS in ROM, TX does not.

Tandy TX supports a math coprocessor, TL does not.

Tandy TL supports digitized audio, TX only supports square wave/noise audio.

It would seem that the TL has more advantages than the TX.

 

[Cloudschatze]

Eh, I'd go with the TL. That said...

- You'll miss out on composite TGA, for which a separate CGA card won't help.

- The PSSJ has a stranglehold on DMA1, which might be an issue if you later install another soundcard, etc.

- Most importantly, if the PSSJ in the TL is similar enough to that of the TL2/RL/RLX/RSX, then the first musical note of KQ2 will ne'er be heard. (I haven't quite figured this one out...)

They both support math co-processors, by-the-way.

 

[Fallo]

I'd go with the TX, and I've been wanting to get one myself. I would recommend it because of the composite output, and it has both 5.25" and 3.5" drives (TL only has the latter). I wouldn't worry about not having the DAC and 640x200x16 mode because most games with Tandy support use the 320x200x16 mode and 3-voice sound.

The keyboard might be a slight problem because of different scan codes, but you can use drivers that remap the keys. You might have problems with booter games that hook INT 9h and read the keyboard directly.

 

[Cloudschatze]

I'd go with the TX... it has both 5.25" and 3.5" drives (TL only has the latter).

AFAIK, both the TX and TL came stock with a single, 3.5" (720K) drive. Anything else was either added at the time of purchase, or after-the-fact.

 

[vwestlife]

Tandy TX has composite video support, Tandy TL would need a separate CGA card, but supports Hercules monochrome graphics & text.

Both Hercules monochrome and Enhanced Tandy CGA are built into the 1000TL (and all members of the RL/SL/TL series). You can press Ctrl-Alt-Shift-V to switch between monochrome and color modes. Both modes use the same monitor output port.

The RL/SL/TL series also features the full 16-color 640x200 graphics mode, as used by DeskMate 3, instead of only 4-color 640x200 graphics in the older 1000s. And the biggest enhancement is the addition of the DAC sound chip with digital audio recording and playback. If you're into graphics and sound, these are the two winning features for the RL/SL/TL series 1000s.

The use of the standard 101-key keyboard layout is a major improvement as well. For every one oddball program that may have been designed for the old 90-key Tandy layout, there are a hundred programs which won't work correctly on the old Tandy layout due to its missing and rearranged keys.

 

[vwestlife]

Also, somewhere I have a schematic for a simple one-IC circuit which converts RGB video into composite or S-video output, with much better quality than the rather poor composite output on the older Tandy 1000s. I know it appeared in a magazine like Popular Electronics or Electronics Now in the mid-'90s... I just have to go through my stack of issues and find it!

 

[Great Hierophant]

The use of the standard 101-key keyboard layout is a major improvement as well. For every one oddball program that may have been designed for the old 90-key Tandy layout, there are a hundred programs which won't work correctly on the old Tandy layout due to its missing and rearranged keys.

Actually, scancode wise, the Tandy keyboard corresponds remarkably well to the IBM PC/XT keyboard. They keys may be labeled differently, but for the most part they are in the same or similar places as on the PC/XT keyboard. Only its extra keys may be unrecognized. With that in mind, virtually any program should work with its keyboard if you know what keys it is expecting.

Also, somewhere I have a schematic for a simple one-IC circuit which converts RGB video into composite or S-video output, with much better quality than the rather poor composite output on the older Tandy 1000s.

The composite output of a CGA or Tandy is designed in a particular way to allow for artifact colors. A "better" color converter may make text a little more legible, but it would also worsen the graphics quality of the many games that use the technique.

- Most importantly, if the PSSJ in the TL is similar enough to that of the TL2/RL/RLX/RSX, then the first musical note of KQ2 will ne'er be heard. (I haven't quite figured this one out...)

Did you try that out with both the booter and the DOS versions of KQ2? Its likely that all the Tandy's mentioned use the same chip.

- The PSSJ has a stranglehold on DMA1, which might be an issue if you later install another soundcard, etc.

Not good for a Sound Blaster, which only uses DMA 1 until the Pros. However, unless they are being used at the same time, it may not be a big deal.

I wouldn't worry about not having the DAC and 640x200x16 mode because most games with Tandy support use the 320x200x16 mode and 3-voice sound.

A VGA card and a Sound Blaster should be able to handle almost any game that uses either.

 

[shawn510]

I'd go for the TL or TL/2. My TL/2 has both size floppies and a XT IDE hard drive (that doesn't exactly work yet). You could get those features in a TX, though. But the DAC you can't get in a TX. And I never had an issue with the keyboard on any T1000 games when I ran them on my RLX.

As for video, why composite instead of a CGA monitor? Using a Leading Edge CGA screen from my XT project on my TL2 and it gets the job done. Can you get the 16 color TGA mode on composite? I thought you could not.

 

[barythrin]

Wow.. I always considered the vintage market to be easier as far as model numbering, etc unlike todays 10 versions of the same thing.. but dang Tandy. I can never keep all the model 1000's straight in my head.

Here's an article as I was googling around for features of the TL http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DC163CF931A3575BC0A96E948260

 

[shawn510]

Wow.. I always considered the vintage market to be easier as far as model numbering, etc unlike todays 10 versions of the same thing.. but dang Tandy. I can never keep all the model 1000's straight in my head.

Here's an article as I was googling around for features of the TL http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DC163CF931A3575BC0A96E948260

It gets even wilder when you look beyond the 1000 series. in the '85 catalog you can count no less than 5 different platforms they were selling at the same time.

1 The PC compatibles, 1000, 2000, 1200HD
2 the 6000/Model II line
3 The Model I/III/IV line
4 The Coco line
5 The Model 100 portable line

And I didn't even count the pocket computers.

 

[vwestlife]

Wow.. I always considered the vintage market to be easier as far as model numbering, etc unlike todays 10 versions of the same thing.. but dang Tandy. I can never keep all the model 1000's straight in my head.

When in doubt, consult the Tandy 1000 FAQ or the Tech Notes & Jumper manual, both available on TVdog's web site:

http://www.oldskool.org/guides/tvdog/index_html

 

[Fallo]

I'd go for the TL or TL/2. My TL/2 has both size floppies and a XT IDE hard drive (that doesn't exactly work yet). You could get those features in a TX, though. But the DAC you can't get in a TX. And I never had an issue with the keyboard on any T1000 games when I ran them on my RLX.

The RLX uses an XT-type keyboard, not the 90-key ones. RLXs were weird 8086/286 hybrids. They could use extended memory (only 1 MB, though) but had an 8-bit ISA bus and no IRQs over 7. They also had VGA (not Tandy) graphics.

As for video, why composite instead of a CGA monitor? Using a Leading Edge CGA screen from my XT project on my TL2 and it gets the job done. Can you get the 16 color TGA mode on composite? I thought you could not.

You certainly can use the Tandy modes on a composite display.

 

[shawn510]

The RLX uses an XT-type keyboard, not the 90-key ones. RLXs were weird 8086/286 hybrids. They could use extended memory (only 1 MB, though) but had an 8-bit ISA bus and no IRQs over 7. They also had VGA (not Tandy) graphics.

I only mention the RLX because that is the one I had after the HX and had no keyboard issues with my games from the HX.
However it didn't have a XT keyboard, but used PS/2 ports for keyboard and mouse. (however the mouse port had compatibilty issues with some programs)

I continued to use the keyboard from the RLX for a while after moving on to 386 and beyond.

 

[vwestlife]

The RLX uses an XT-type keyboard, not the 90-key ones. RLXs were weird 8086/286 hybrids. They could use extended memory (only 1 MB, though) but had an 8-bit ISA bus and no IRQs over 7.

This was true of the TX and TL series. But the RLX is a full AT-class 80286 machine. Unlike the TX and TLs, it can run Windows 3.1 in 286 Standard mode (with 1 MB RAM on the motherboard). It has an AT-spec PS/2 keyboard port and the full IRQs up to 15. It also has a 1.44MB floppy drive, versus the TX, TL, and TL/2 which only support 720K (and 360K) drives*. The only thing it doesn't have is a 16-bit ISA expansion slot; it only has an 8-bit slot.

* The TL/3 has a high-density floppy controller but only ever came with 720K/360K drives installed.

 

[Cloudschatze]

* The TL/2 has a high-density floppy controller...

Everything I've read states otherwise. Have you tested this?

 

[vwestlife]

Everything I've read states otherwise. Have you tested this?

OK, I was off by one revision. I'll try to boil it down, according to the info in the 1000 series Tech Notes & Jumpers manual:

Tandy 1000TL:
* 80286 CPU at 8 MHz (4 MHz in slow mode), with 80287 coprocessor socket
* 640K RAM standard, upgradeable to 768K on motherboard (640K + 128K video memory)
* Video switchable between Enhanced Tandy CGA and Hercules monochrome
* 5 8-bit ISA expansion slots
* IRQs above 7 and Extended Memory not supported
* AT-style DIN keyboard port
* Low-density floppy controller
* 3½" 720K floppy drive standard; second 3½" 720K drive and/or one 5¼" 360K drive optional
* Card-edge parallel port; 9-pin serial port
* 2 Tandy/CoCo DIN joystick ports; headphone & microphone/aux input jacks
* MS-DOS 3.3 & DeskMate 3.02 core files in ROM

Updates in the 1000TL/2:
* Built-in IDE-XT "SmartDrive" controller (supports Seagate ST-351A/X and a handful of other hard drives)
* Lost one ISA slot; now only 4
* DeskMate updated to 3.03

Further updates in the 1000TL/3:
* CPU speed increased to 10 MHz (5 MHz in slow mode)
* Floppy controller now supports high-density 1.2/1.44MB drives (but it still only came with a 720K drive as standard)
* PS/2 mouse port added
* Maybe DeskMate updated to 3.04? (unconfirmed)

The TL/3 is by far the rarest. It didn't even appear in any of the full yearly Radio Shack catalogs.

 

[Fallo]

This was true of the TX and TL series. But the RLX is a full AT-class 80286 machine. Unlike the TX and TLs, it can run Windows 3.1 in 286 Standard mode (with 1 MB RAM on the motherboard). It has an AT-spec PS/2 keyboard port and the full IRQs up to 15. It also has a 1.44MB floppy drive, versus the TX, TL, and TL/2 which only support 720K (and 360K) drives*. The only thing it doesn't have is a 16-bit ISA expansion slot; it only has an 8-bit slot.

Nope, the RLX did only have 8 IRQs (documented in the Tandy 1000 FAQ). It's PS/2 mouse port used IRQ 2 and didn't work with most mouse drivers that expected IRQ 12.

The RLX came with an auto-switching XT/AT keyboard, but used it in XT mode. The RSX was the only of the Tandy 1000 line to use the AT keyboard protocol.

I might add that the RLX was probably not made into a full AT-class machine so it wouldn't steal sales from the 3000 line.

Returning to the original topic, I just remembered that with the TLs, you can disable the onboard floppy controller, printer port, and joysticks. The TX and earlier can't do this. That could be useful if you want to install standard ports.

 

[vwestlife]

Nope, the RLX did only have 8 IRQs (documented in the Tandy 1000 FAQ). It's PS/2 mouse port used IRQ 2 and didn't work with most mouse drivers that expected IRQ 12.

The RLX came with an auto-switching XT/AT keyboard, but used it in XT mode. The RSX was the only of the Tandy 1000 line to use the AT keyboard protocol.

Apparently the RLX does not have extended IRQs, but it does allow its 286 processor to run in protected mode, unlike all other 1000s with 286s (TX, TL, TL/2, TL/3) which are real-mode only. And TVdog claims that the RLX uses an AT-type keyboard interface; it was the plain 8086-powered RL that used a PS/2 keyboard port but required an XT-compatible keyboard.

I might add that the RLX was probably not made into a full AT-class machine so it wouldn't steal sales from the 3000 line.

In the early '90s, Tandy offered the 2500 series as the next step above the 1000 series, initially with 286 CPUs and then later 386SXes. These were full AT-class machines with 16-bit ISA slots, high-density floppy and IDE-ATA support, VGA video, Tandy DAC audio, and DOS in ROM in some versions.

 

[Druid6900]

If you eventually decide on the TX, I have one for sale that has both size drives, a 42MB hard card and a Lava 8-bit VGA card. Even has the keyboard.

 

[Trixter]

It would seem that the TL has more advantages than the TX.

Unless you have a need for composite video out, the TL is indeed the better system. More speed, DOS in ROM, built-in DAC.