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Wow. $5k for an Apple II.

I purchased and gutted a ROM card for the Integer ROMs. Not for downgrading an upgraded system, but to populate a low serial number Revision 0 motherboard. How low? Low 300s. Anyway, you're right - those boards are being gutted. A lot of people, myself included, bought a ROM card with FP ROMs and then swapped with the Integer ROMs from the Apple II motherboard. I recently swapped them back (my Apple II is SN 2527).
 
I'd value a Lisa above an original (Rev. 0) Apple II. If the Lisa was an original w/ dual twiggy drives, I'd recommend calling Sotheby's as well! Personal opinion, of course.

That said, this spike may impact a lot of vintage users and I wouldn't be surprised if the II+ sees a significant spike in the next year. By impacting hobbyists, I also mean spouses asking why in the world $5k is sitting on a desk collecting dust! Sorry dear... :)
 
barythrin said:
Gib, what's rare about yours?
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In a real sense? Not much... In a Relative sense, there were a lot fewer 1978's than there were 1979's. They made what? 600 Rev0's in '77, and about 6000 Rev1's in '78... and then production really ramped up.

(I know that's oversimplified, but that's the gist of it.)

The '78 is about as close to a rev0 as I'm ever likely to be able to afford.
 
Gibsaw said:
In a real sense? Not much... In a Relative sense, there were a lot fewer 1978's than there were 1979's. They made what? 600 Rev0's in '77, and about 6000 Rev1's in '78... and then production really ramped up.

(I know that's oversimplified, but that's the gist of it.)
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I believe around 2000 rev.0 systems were made by end of 1977 and an additional 3700 by July 1978 when they switched over to the rev.1 boards. So in total around 5700.

By the end of 1978 they were using rev.2 boards and were up to serial number 14000 and by the time the II Plus was introduced in June 1979 they were up to serial number 28000 with rev.3 boards. Eventually around 80,000 original II were made, the last ones using rev.4 boards and maybe even rev.7 but of course the II and II Plus are the same machine except for ROMs, name badge, and model/serial number sticker. So in that sense there were only around 28,000 truly original II systems made before the product line diverged.

Compared to the 6 million total Apple II family machines sold by the 1990s, or the fact that these days new Apple products like iPhone and iPad sell millions of units within weeks of introduction, the number 28,000 seems incredibly modest. That puts the rarity of these early machines in perspective.

Howie
 
Wonder how many folks are there to distinguish that fine line between the value. I don't want a rev. 0, I would just love to have a plain II just for collection sake. I'm sure we'll see a couple thousand dollar Apple II posts end up on CL soon.
 
barythrin said:
Wonder how many folks are there to distinguish that fine line between the value. I don't want a rev. 0, I would just love to have a plain II just for collection sake. I'm sure we'll see a couple thousand dollar Apple II posts end up on CL soon.
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Yes, I suppose it comes down as to your motives for collecting. Some people like that feeling of owning (or investing in) something that is both rare and coverted by others of the same ilk. I can kind of see where they are coming from. I quite enjoy showing off my early Kaypro II model with vertical drives for example.

Similarly, the small changes "within model". It's not a big motivator for me but I know some people for which this is very important. These folk usually collect just a line of models and are looking to get every variation.

Tez
 
:D I love those older machines where companies took the time to add graphics and stuff on the cases. They look like they came straight out of an older sci-fi movie. :)
 
dorkbert said:
For those with cash to burn and missed out on the last (overpriced) II, here's another one for a bargain price (as of this writing) of $3550. Maybe U.S. dollar has depreciated so much that $3550 is about the equivalent of $100 in 1990...
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... wait for it... it went for 6,100 USD. I suddenly felt the $40 in my wallet is now worth a lot less.
 
Man, I'm kicking myself. About a year back there was an original Apple II on craigslist for $300 I think. I thought THAT was too much so I passed, the idiot that I am. :sneaky:
 
TanruNomad said:
Man, I'm kicking myself. About a year back there was an original Apple II on craigslist for $300 I think. I thought THAT was too much so I passed, the idiot that I am. :sneaky:
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No, not at all. They aren't worth this much money. It's one of the most common computers ever made at that time. It's just stupid eBay pricing with stupid people bidding stupid prices because they don't have anything better to do with their money. I'll give you my working Apple IIe for free with shipping if you want. I'm sick and tired of this crap. It's a stupid old computer, that's it. It's common, it's not worth anywhere near $300. This market is over inflated and it's going to come crashing down on it's face soon, not soon enough.

I remember when this hobby was about the hobby, and helping each other out. Not about who can get the most money out of the dumb saps. Sure, some computers are worth more than others, but $300 for yet another Apple II is just stupid, and anything higher is just insane. I long for the old days where everyone enjoyed buying/selling/trading computers for experiencing different technology, not so they can stuff their wallets. eBay can die.</rant>
 
mikerm said:
No, not at all. They aren't worth this much money. It's one of the most common computers ever made at that time. It's just stupid eBay pricing with stupid people bidding stupid prices because they don't have anything better to do with their money. I'll give you my working Apple IIe for free with shipping if you want. I'm sick and tired of this crap. It's a stupid old computer, that's it. It's common, it's not worth anywhere near $300.
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Actually if you are talking about including all of the different Apple II models in the family (II, II Plus, IIe, IIc, IIgs) then yes, nearly 6 million were sold over 16 years making it one of the most common computers ever. However, if you are talking from a collector's view the true original Apple II is the model that started it all in 1977. That is, the vision of Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs that transformed the personal computer industry by being the very first computer targeted at the consumer (not computer hobbyist) that provided several historic 1sts such as first true all-in-one motherboard with expansion slots for daughter cards, first home computer with color graphics, and first home computer packaged in an ergonomic case to make it user friendly. When you put the Apple II side-by-side with an Altair 8800 or IMSAI 8080 it is pretty clear how much more influential the Apple was on PC design persisting to this day. In 1977 the Commodore PET 2001 and TRS-80 Model I rounded out the trinity of breakthrough home PCs, but again to this day the things that the two Steves got so "right" with their machine compared to the others has stood the test of time.

With that in mind there were about 28,000 original Apple II systems made before the product line diverged with the II Plus. I'd bet that nearly half of them got upgraded at some point with new Applesoft ROMs, replacement PSU, perhaps even replacement keyboard or even later-model motherboards to make them a II Plus. Then figure that half of the remaining ones probably ended up recycled or simply trashed, and what you are left with is a surprisingly small number of original units still functioning today 35 years later. So while I agree $6K for an Apple II seems excessive, saying it's common and not worth anywhere near $300 is also kind of extreme. If one joy in this hobby is being able to experience exactly what it felt like to be one of the first lucky few back in 1977 to operate a revolutionary machine and get a glimpse into the future of home computing, I'd say an early Apple II is hard to beat.

Howie
 
Wow, is that really all? 28,000 Apple II systems out there? That does make that more bleak although yeah I've passed on several hundred dollar II systems in the past for being more than I wanted to spend. I did finally get a IIplus after a few years of pecking around. I understand the difference a little bit, sorta like the original IBM 5150 motherboard is worth a bunch and the other revisions aren't, etc.. so don't everyone go scoop up a bunch of IIe systems for a misunderstood reason, they're still only worth whatever (..under $100 I would think).

It is easy to forget the timeline of computing though, I mean blinkenlights are great fun to look at and for us techies to have all that control and programming but to the average end user (which I guess there weren't too many at the time) that was a headache waiting to happen. Ask anyone not interested in computers about their college computer programming classes on punch cards, etc.

It's certainly one of the fun parts and huge drive that gets me going is to show computer evolution in the collection, however it's also the poison to gather one of each model (not revision .. though I'm sure some out there have that drive).

Price wise I think it's just tough, I think whenever we all became aware of collecting and the prices that used to be there for some of the more common equipment is the price in the back of our minds that it's worth. Apples I have a hard time with, although I can rarely find one for sale today, back in .. 2001 or so our Goodwill Computer store had a shelf full of IIe, IIc, and IIgs systems when the school district finally got permission to throw them out. I bought a IIc for $5, and I think all the e's were also $5 or $10 depending on the condition. A few friends and I picked up 1 to reminisce, I was "collecting" so I picked up one of each over a few weeks. I came to realize that the monitor I picked up had the RF input while the IIc has the 15-pin monitor plug so I went back another weekend to find a converter which they had. They had the converters for $3 to go from (mac? whatever it's called) 2 row 15-pin to rca however they also had a IIc with one on it for $5. Obviously this was a fairly dumb pricing model so off I went with a second IIc.

Needless to say it's difficult for me to say how much a IIe or IIc is worth since the last time I was in the market they were being practically given away with little to no interest. Part of me of course is happy as far as investment sake goes, but the other part knows it sucks since parts and systems are getting difficult to find and exponentially more difficult to afford.
 
barythrin said:
Wow, is that really all? 28,000 Apple II systems out there?
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I should clarify that my statement about 28,000 systems made has to do with what serial number they were up to when the II Plus was introduced in June 1979. The II and II Plus are actually the same machine, just with different ROMs (Woz's Integer BASIC vs. Microsoft's AppleSoft BASIC), different name plate logo, and different model no./serial number scheme on the case sticker. They used the exact same keyboards, cases, PSUs and importantly motherboards. So I view it as the moment the product line diverged into II and II Plus, the originality of the II was diluted. So even though they went on to make around 80,000 total systems that were sold as Apple II (non-Plus) really the first 28,000 have unique historic significance. It's a slippery slope, though, because if you disagree and say that every unit that was officially made should be counted, you might as well extend that logic to include the 600,000+ II Plus systems as well since all you have to do is swap ROMs, swap case covers, and presto! you have an "original" II in all ways except for the serial number sticker. And since we are talking from a collector's point of view as opposed to a pragmatic one (how often they are opposed!) that misses the point of why the earliest machines are inherently more historically interesting and thus command higher prices when traded.

Howie
 
lol. Interesting dates and serials though.. not sure if they played with their serial numbers but that case has 32844 then it has the 50166th power supply, and I guess 7960th motherboard? I know that doesn't mean that much (not like it's all ever going to match) but interesting numbers to indicate xx thousand have been produced.
 
I think the logic board number is just 30th week of 1979. The power supply does not look original, and I am almost certain that the machine had restoration work done to it; I've never seen the velcro tags survived the years on the IIs and II pluses. Maybe someone knows a little more about the base plate serial number correlation to production year; most of the discrete components visible in the available photos were manufactured in 1979.
 
dorkbert said:
Then inevitably, THIS happens.
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There's a lot of "inflated-hype" going on with that listing. Original this, original that. At the end of the day, it's an apple II like any other... with less possibilities if it's lacking upgrades.
As for the different revisions of systemboards... it's technically better to have the latest revision. In my opinion anyways. I like to upgrade my old computers as much as possible (I use them! And sometimes see how far I can push them); rather than keep a bare unit for "collecting". Heh, collectors who never turn on their old computers will figure out the hard way that computers are made to be used and [should be] powered on every now and then.
I may be getting an Apple II for free from an acquaintance, in which case I'm loading Oregon Trail on it and having some fun. And if I ever sell it, it won't be $5000.

I've also seen some listings of 5150/5160s that are higher than $100; that's way too much. I picked mine out of the trash for free. I don't think these high prices are justified. But maybe there's someone that'll be a good neighbour and sell such systems for a respectable price :)

I won't give names, but there's someone on ebay who has a few old systems (5150, 5160, 5170, PS1, etc) listed for more than $700. Nuts!
 
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