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A major breakthrough in removing yellowing from old cases!!!

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If it's going to be a fairly loose gel, should I brush it on, spray it on, or pour it on? (or all of the above, as an experiment on an experiment?).

What are your thoughts on the consistancy or "stickiness" that the gel might have? Will this stuff stick on, or run off like water? What if the part is not flat? Am I going to need to prop up one end of the part so it is flat?

Will this stuff evaporate quickly (like water does here)? IE: Am I going to be giving it a few coats per day? (I'll have to order in some more Bass if that's the case).

I'm just trying to work on my "plan it all out first" idea.
 
My suggestion is to brush it on, you should be able to get a thicker coat that way. Spraying will probably shear and break the gel structure so don't do that.

The gel should stick OK and hang on a vertical surface. Regarding the drying, it may just skin over which will slow the drying down.

Until we try it, we don't know.
 
Here are two pieces (top and bottom) from my other Osborne 1a.
2nd processing.jpg
The top was processed once and got to a lighter grey than the yellow it was. After I finshed the 1st 1a, I decided I'd try and get this 2nd one to a little lighter grey than it was. The bottom piece went into the solution for another day, and it looks a lot lighter - it almost makes the top piece look yellow in comparison. This process does take time - the longer they soak, the better the results.
 
I have to hand it to you Lorne, you have really taken this on and made these experiments your own. I am so proud of what you have achieved and so should you be.

I really would like a high-res set of these pictures when you have finished. I am certain that we are going to use some of your pictures as part of the Wiki article, to finally prove to the trolls and nay-sayers that this problem finally has been well and truly cracked.

One guy over at EAB suggested that ethyl alcohol might make it work faster, however, I feel that mixing peroxide and alcohol with a catalyst present is straying too near rocket fuel country for comfort. Our process is safe to operate at present and I don't really want to jeopardise that; do you agree?

Merlin
 
This is all good stuff.

After the experimentation is finished, will you guys write this up somewhere in an easily digestible article or guide? A lot of it's here in the discussion, but it is a bit to wade through if you are looking for a recipie.

Yellow cases is one of the big issues in Vintage computers and it's great that these trials appear to have succeeded so well.

Tez
 
@ all

I've already made a start on the article, here's where I am up to, I am trying to make this easily understandable:-

PDBEs – The Fire Retardant and the Cause of all of the Yellowing

WHAT ARE PBDEs?

Polybrominated diphenyl ethers or PBDEs, are a group of chemicals that are used as flame retardants in a variety of polymer resins and plastics. They are found in many products in most homes and businesses, including furniture, TVs, stereos, computers, carpets, and curtains. PBDEs are also used, to a lesser degree, in some textiles, adhesives, sealants and coatings.

CO-ORDINATE BONDS AND LIGANDS

Coordination compounds

Coordinate bonding is popularly used to describe coordination complexes, especially involving metal ions. In such complexes, several Lewis bases "donate" their "free" pairs of electrons to an otherwise naked metal cation, which acts as a Lewis acid and "accepts" the electrons. Coordinate bonds form and the resulting compound is called a coordination complex, and the electron donors are called ligands. A more useful description of bonding in coordination compounds is provided by Ligand Field Theory, which embraces molecular orbitals as a description of bonding in such polyatomic compounds.
Many chemical compounds can serve as ligands, often these contain oxygen, sulfur, nitrogen, and halide ions (such as bromine Br-). The most common ligand is water (H2O), which forms coordination complexes with metal ions (like the hexaaquacopper(II) ion, [Cu(H2O)6]2+). Ammonia (NH3) is also a common ligand, as well as anions, especially fluoride (F-), chloride (Cl-), and cyanide (CN-).

A coordinate covalent bond is a description of covalent bonding between two atoms in which both electrons shared in the bond come from the same atom. The distinction from ordinary covalent bonding is artificial, but the terminology is popular in textbooks, especially those describing coordination compounds. Once the bonds have been formed using this, its strength and description is no different from that of other polar covalent bonds.
Coordinate covalent bonds occur when a Lewis base (an electron donor or giver) donates a pair of electrons to a Lewis acid (an electron acceptor) to give a so-called adduct. The process of forming a dative bond is called coordination. The electron donor acquires a positive formal charge, while the electron acceptor acquires a negative formal charge.

TAED – One of the Magic Ingredients

Tetraacetylethylenediamine, commonly abbreviated TAED, is an organic compound with the formula (CH3C(O))2NCH2CH2N(C(O)CH3)2. This colourless compound is often dyed blue or green for use in laundry detergents, its most significant application. It is produced by acetylation of ethylenediamine.

Use in laundry detergents and mechanism of action

TAED is an important component of detergents and bleaches. Its is an activator for "active oxygen" bleaching agents. Such active oxygen bleaching agents release hydrogen peroxide during the wash cycle. Such agents include sodium perborate, sodium percarbonate, sodium perphosphate, sodium persulfate, and urea peroxide. The released hydrogen peroxide is an inefficient bleach below 40 °C, except in the presence of activators such as TAED.
The activation process entails a reaction of the hydrogen peroxide with TAED to release peracetic acid, which is a fast-acting beaching agent.

(CH3C(O))2NCH2CH2N(C(O)CH3)2 + H2O2 ? (CH3C(O))2NCH2CH2NH(C(O)CH3) + CH3CO3H

It is exactly this chemical which we want to produce in our magic brew; all we are doing is cutting out a few steps by using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) directly.

UV AND BROMINE – The Magic Weapon of Choice

We are going to talk through this mechanism in a very simple way so that you get a feel for what is going on.

The role of the UV light

The ultraviolet light is simply a source of energy, and is being used to break bonds. In fact, the energies and wavelengths of the UV energy (260 nm down to just below 200 nm) are just about exactly right to break the bonds in bromine molecules to produce bromine atoms.
Because the bromine atoms have single unpaired electrons, then we call them bromine free radicals - or more usually just bromine radicals.
To show that a species (either an atom or a group of atoms) is a free radical, the symbol is written with a dot attached to show the unpaired electron. The splitting of the bromine molecule would be shown as:

Br2-----> 2Br.

Free radicals are formed if a bond splits evenly - each atom getting one of the two electrons. The scientific name given to this is homolytic fission. We actually want to break apart the bromine and oxygen by using UV light of the right wavelength to produce free oxygen and bromine radicals.

So, UV light can be used to break apart bromine bonds, this is the main reason we use it, as we want to convert the bromine to a free radical and cleave the oxygen from the end of the bromine compound.


How's it coming along, can you follow all of this so far?

Merlin
 
I agree on keeping it safe.
Now, between you and me, how much ethyl alcohol would I add, IF I wanted to speed up the process a little?

The article is looking good. Some people will want to know the science, as well as how to do it. They'll get the science from what you've written so far. I wouldn't get much headier though.

I like it - it makes me think I actually know what it is I'm doing :) and that'd be a first !
 
Yeah - I could send Merlin one of my finished products and bypass the UPS costs. (It'd probably get there in better condition that way too!).
 
@ all

I've already made a start on the article, here's where I am up to, I am trying to make this easily understandable:-

(Blurb.....)

How's it coming along, can you follow all of this so far?

Merlin

Yes, I can. That's good background info, which helps people understand what's going on.

However, how important is it to understand what's going on to that detail? I can follow it, but then I've done college papers (years ago) in chemistry (even then the memory is hazy on "halide ions" and the like.) :)

For the average Joe Bloggs, what he (or she...if there are any she's) wants to know is..

1. What do I need? (ingredients)
2. What do I do? (concentration, times, procedures)
3. What do I need to be careful of? (safety, accidental label destruction etc).

I'm assuming the article will get to these things. I wonder if the introduction (Which I assume is what you have written above) might be better much shorter, with a link to that more detailed stuff for those that really want to understand what's going on?

It's like when you cook food, you just want a recipe more than knowing what is actually going on chemically in the mix. Could the article be like a recipe, with the technical background stuff "in the background".

Now if it turns out there is no recipe...in that every case is going to be different...then folk will definitely need to undertand the process.
From what what's been done though, it seems like a recipe (or recipes) might be possible, yes?

Anyway, hopefully those are useful comments.

Tez
 
I'm as inpatient as anyone, and always want to get to the meat of "how do I do it" (and do it quicker preferably!).

But Wiki articles can be big, and I think this one may be too.

They also give lots of information - I think this one, will too.
I like the idea of having all the info there, in case you want to know everything about the process. I've looked at other Wiki articles and some don't have enough info, but have loads of links. I think this should be a one stop shop - get all the info in one place.

Merlin's "start" is concentrating on the bits he knows best. I'm sure he'll incorporate the "recipe", after he tries to teach people what a stove, a pot, a pan, and the ingredients are.

Everyone trying this should know the what the process is based on (IE: the chemicals involved). I need to post a photo of what your skin looks like after your Dr type latex glove splits it's seam, while you're fishing around in the tub for the part. It burns, and it turns your skin white in about 10 seconds. I think people need to be aware of all this.
Providing all the info in one place, is the responsible thing to do.
 
@ Tezza

From the sterling work done by Lorne, the recipe that has been proven to work time after time is:-

1) Hydrogen Peroxide - at least 20% strength, the stronger the better;
2) 'Oxy' laundry detergent booster - 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoonful per gallon;
3) UV light - as much as you can get hold of, either as sunlight or a UV lamp.

Cover any metal items with tape or wax and immerse in the solution until you are happy with the results. Don't rush it; as Lorne has found out, it takes time, and if we were to speed it up, we would create more heat which may distort the parts. This solution can last for up to four days before it's finally spent and the peroxide has been used up.

Adding more 'Oxy' will just create foam and it will overflow the container.

Happy now?

:mrgreen:
 
Great. Short and sweet EXCEPT...

Oxy? Never heard of that in New Zealand. Must be a brand name. A laundry additive of some kind? Is it a fabric softener?

Gallons? U.S. Gallons (*figuring out how to convert that to metric*)

UV. Ahh...thanks to the hole in the Ozone layer we have PLENTY of that down here, especially in early summer as the hole breaks up over Antartica and drifts northwards.

If I can find some peroxide (a big if..it might be a restricted substance here), I'll have a crack with my Vic 20 case, and perhaps my RX-8800 sometime in the next couple of months.

Tez
 
I've been using 1 tsp of Oxy per gallon (US). I don't think you need to worry about US vs Imp gals - my tsp measurments haven't been exact.

In my next batch, I'm going to reduce the amount of Oxy - Ive got a suspicion the Oxy might shorten the life of the H202. My last batch lasted only three days. We'll see.

For the H202, try a company that supplies cleaners to carpet cleaning firms, or a pool chemical company. The stuff I'm using is for carpet cleaners - it's just H202 and water.

Here's a link to OxiClean for the US and Canada: http://www.oxiclean.com/default2.asp
If they have the stuff in Canada and the UK, you should be able to get it there (or maybe from Australia?).
 
@ Tezza

In the UK the most popular brand is Vanish Oxy Action. If you can find a laundry booster at your supermarket that says "Oxi" or "Oxy Action" you can be sure it contains TAED.

I am talking UK Gallons = 4.546 litres = 1.2 US Gallons (blimey!). I used to work for an oil company so I know this backwards....

:)
 
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Right-ho people,

SAFETY FIRST!!!

Hydrogen Peroxide is dangerous stuff; I strongly recommend that you wear goggles, rubber washing up gloves (not latex = too thin) and old clothing when handling this stuff, especially at 35% strength.

If this stuff splashes on your skin it will cause burns, both on and under the skin; hospital treatment is highly recommended if you burn yourself. If you get it into your eyes, it can cause permanent damage to the cornea that only eye surgery to replace the cornea can correct, and even that's not 100% guaranteed, you get the idea, you can NEVER have too much safety.

A quick trip to the local hardware store to get some goggles and gloves cannot be stressed enough. While you are there, why not get some disposable overalls? You know it makes sense.....

Peroxide can also bleach clothing at this strength, hence the recommendation to wear old clothes or disposable overalls.

There, that's the safety lecture bit over for now.....

@ Lorne

I am going to deposit all relevant info and notes into this thread for now; I know it's a loooong thread, but I don't want fragmented information across different sites and threads if I can avoid it. My esteemed colleague and hackmeister Zetr0 from EAB has now been made aware of this site and thread, so we can use this thread to get information ready for the Wiki on here.

Edit: VCF and I accept no responsbility for injuries or damages caused by using information presented in this and other threads. This information is provided purely for scientific and educational purposes only; you use this infomation entirely at your own risk. If you decide to burn your house down, drink the solution, give the dog a bath in peroxide or get Oxy in your eyes, it's on your own head, OK? I know nothing, I didn't do it, no-one saw me do it, you can't prove anything.....
 
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Just on the safety note Merlin, you might want to put a disclaimer (use at your own risk...author assumes no responsibility etc.) on whatever is the final published version of the technique just to protect yourself.

Most of use here all know that if you are careless with this procedure you could injure yourself and/or damage your cases, but you may get some idiot who finds this procedure in an Internet search, makes a mess of things and then tries to throw the responsibility back to the person that published the guide.

Tez
 
Just on the safety note Merlin, you might want to put a disclaimer (use at your own risk...author assumes no responsibility etc.) on whatever is the final published version of the technique just to protect yourself.

Tez

Yeah - and I've had nothing to do with any of this.
And Tez, if you screw anything up, don't be calling on me - I don't know anything about any of it.
 
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