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XT IDE Ordering interest? (Was: Xt-ide

XT IDE Ordering interest? (Was: Xt-ide

  • 1

    Votes: 59 52.7%

  • 2

    Votes: 38 33.9%

  • 3

    Votes: 8 7.1%

  • 4

    Votes: 5 4.5%

  • 5+ (please post how many below)

    Votes: 2 1.8%
  • Total voters
    112
AC: Just out of curiosity, what kind of speeds are you seeing with your SCSI interface in your 5160? I have two XTs with SCSI HBAs in them both running Micropolis 320 meg 5.25" HH drives (a real Cadillac of a drive, must have cost a fortune in their day). I don't remember the benchmark results off the top of my head but I'll have to run a test and post back with the results.

I'm curious how fast the XT-IDE is going to be for me once I get mine assembled and installed. I know IDE is going to put all the disk access processing on the CPU so I'm expecting no better then about 250-300 KB/sec which is similar to what I get from properly interleaved MFM and RLL drives.
 
mike brutman wrote a benchmark, and our XTIDE gets a whopping 85k/S. yeah, it's pokey.
the reason we're pokey is that we're not using DMA to transfer the data, so the CPU has to halt everything and push/pull all the data from the drive manually, and it's using 2 IO read or write operations * 256 for each sector of data. Adding DMA support requires extra hardware. Changing the device to be memory mapped instead of IO mapped should help, since we could then locate the 16bit data anywhere in memory and read/write it using better CPU instructions. These would all be future projects.

As slow as it is, it's not unbearable. I'll take size over speed anyday.
 
In my 5160 I replaced the original 4.77MHz motherboard with a 10MHz V30 clone board. With that I get 700kb/sec on CF and 650kb/sec with a traditional SCSI hard drive. I haven't tested it out on a real 4.77MHz system in over a year, but I believe it is roughly half what I listed for the 10MHz system.
 
Come to think of it, I remember getting about 600kb/sec on my SCSI setup too, and the machine is an XT clone with a 10MHz 8088 CPU.
 
Last edited:
hargle said:
mike brutman wrote a benchmark, and our XTIDE gets a whopping 85k/S. yeah, it's pokey.
the reason we're pokey is that we're not using DMA to transfer the data.....
Click to expand...

Do you know if any 8-bit IDE controllers used DMA ? I also have a JDR 8-bit IDE , I'll try running a benchmark
on this card to see what the transfer rate is. Any suggestions on what benchmark program to use ? I think I
have an old copy of Norton Utilities around, it may have a HD benchmark.
 
I'm sure there's at least one 8 bit controller that uses DMA. The sIDE 1/16 card does not. We're 100% compatible with that card.
I have also seen controllers that use memory mapped IO, which is something I think we need to explore next, as it will take the least amount of hardware reworking and give us a bit of performance improvement.

Check the wiki for the benchmark, it's available in the testing section.

--------------------------

Also, as of 2 minutes ago, I have sold every XTIDE card I have available. I am also out of keyboard adapters. If you have not sent your payment in or made arrangements with me by now, it is too late.

Sorry, but all I can say is that you should have added your vote to the poll at the start of this thread so we would have gotten a better count of the number people wanted.
I am happy that we got through the entire list of people on the spreadsheet though, so enough of the deadbeats early on were able to free up enough cards for the late comers.


That said, user GLITCH here may have a card or two (pre-assembled) that has not been sold yet.
 
DaveAF said:
Hi,
I'm interested in three kits.
Will these work with Tany 1000's?
If I don't have a PayPal account, are other options available?
Cheers Dave
Click to expand...

Yes, they do work, but you will need to adjust the settings to avoid conflicting with the integrated HD controller for those 1000s that have them.
I have my XTIDE running just fine with a 1000 TL/2, that also happens to have a 486DLC upgrade in it :D

I may wind up putting one in my PS/2 model 30, but I haven't decided yet. Its 20MB drive still works... kind of more authentic that way I guess.

I'm so torn!

__
Trevor
 
Lord Moz said:
Yes, they do work, but you will need to adjust the settings to avoid conflicting with the integrated HD controller for those 1000s that have them.
I have my XTIDE running just fine with a 1000 TL/2, that also happens to have a 486DLC upgrade in it :D

I may wind up putting one in my PS/2 model 30, but I haven't decided yet. Its 20MB drive still works... kind of more authentic that way I guess.

I'm so torn!

__
Trevor
Click to expand...

Thanks Trevor,

I guess I'm out of luck from reading recent posts.

Any chance of a second run?

I wouldn't mind picking up three of these in kit form or assembled......

Cheers Dave
 
Contact glitch to see if he's got any left.

There may be a second run of both keyboard adapters and IDE controllers eventually. At the moment, I'm burned out from this project and a couple hundred bucks thinner in the wallet. I think it was worth it though; vintage computing will never be the same! I want to spend some time actually using the card (I didn't even get one of these for myself) and writing more software for it (CD-ROM driver) for awhile, then possibly this coming fall/winter, we can gather up the rest of the people who want one and make another order.

Of course, the whole thing is open source, so there is no reason that someone else couldn't take the lead and get some more cranked out... Be happy to help get someone else started.
 
There are plenty of PCB fabs out there that specialize in low quantity runs for very good prices. The last PCB I had made I did through Futurelec and if I recall correctly is was very inexpensive and they got the PCBs back to me in just a few weeks.

You may even be able to get most or all of the components from Futurelec as well.

http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml

Generally Futurelec has some great prices on components but be careful what you buy there. I purchased some heavy duty 300 watt NPN power transistors from them to rebuild a 35 amp DC power supply that had taken a lightning strike. The price of the transistors seemed too good to be true ($3 vs $12 anywhere else) so I was worried they may have been counterfeits. I bought an extra to cut open and examine the die and sure enough, they were counterfeits. Had I not checked and used them and one shorted before the power supply's crowbar circuit could catch it, it may have damaged several thousand dollars of amateur radio equipment I use the power supply for!

But for buying simple things like these TTL ICs I think the risk of counterfeit parts is extremely low no matter where you get them from.
 
Last edited:
hargle said:
Contact glitch to see if he's got any left.

There may be a second run of both keyboard adapters and IDE controllers eventually. At the moment, I'm burned out from this project and a couple hundred bucks thinner in the wallet. I think it was worth it though; vintage computing will never be the same! I want to spend some time actually using the card (I didn't even get one of these for myself) and writing more software for it (CD-ROM driver) for awhile, then possibly this coming fall/winter, we can gather up the rest of the people who want one and make another order.

Of course, the whole thing is open source, so there is no reason that someone else couldn't take the lead and get some more cranked out... Be happy to help get someone else started.
Click to expand...

Thanks Hargle,
I've added my name to the spreadsheet if a second run should happen.
I do have a SB/IDE that I have to modify for my SX. (next project)
The 1000A, etc will have to wait....
Cheers Dave
 
I downloaded a copy of IOTEST.EXE from the XT-IDE Wiki page and
ran a benchmark comparison between the XT-IDE I assembled from a
kit and a JDR MCT-IDE-8 IDE controller I purchased from eBay a
few weeks ago.

One BIG limitation of the JDR MCT-IDE-8 is that it only supports IDE
drives up to 528MB. Using the JDR card I was able to Fdisk a 1 GB
drive into 2 500 MB partitions, format, sys c: , and boot to the
drive but further write attempts to the drive produced errors.


For this test I used a WD Caviar 1270 270MB drive on my stock IBM 5160 XT.

I ran the IOTEST write 1024 5 and see the following 5 iteration average results:

XT-IDE 108.64 kb/sec

JDR MCT-IDE-8 142.34 kb/sec

I ran the IOTEST read 1024 5 and see the following 5 iteration average results:

XT-IDE 128.93 kb/sec

JDR MCT-IDE-8 153.85 kb/sec

I have no idea if the JDR card is using DMA but I would think DMA would
make the card much faster.

One thing I noticed both cards showed the same behaviour when issuing a
DIR after reboot... theres about a 10 sec delay. Issuing a DIR a second+
time the files are listed and returned to the prompt immediately.
 
Last edited:
mikey99 said:
One thing I noticed both cards showed the same behaviour when issuing a
DIR after reboot... theres about a 10 sec delay. Issuing a DIR a second+
time the commands completes quickly.
Click to expand...
Normal. Counting free disk space takes some time on a 8088...
 
DaveAF said:
Thanks Hargle,
I've added my name to the spreadsheet if a second run should happen.
I do have a SB/IDE that I have to modify for my SX. (next project)
The 1000A, etc will have to wait....
Cheers Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,
I am presently considering doing a small PCB manufacturing run of the XTIDE boards for the N8VEM project. Obviously the XT-IDE is Hargle's baby but like with a real baby, he could probably use a break from all the activity lately.

However, if I do an N8VEM PCB manufacturing run they'll be distributed like the rest of the N8VEM PCBs which means home brew all the way so bring your own parts, soldering iron, VOM, programmer, etc. Basically, you'll be on your own which will be fine for a lot of builders but not appealing to some. I know it won't be as popular as Hargle's "full service" solution with kits, assembled units, etc but it will buy some time until the next XT-IDE batch is organized.

I am working to make the arrangements with the PCB manufacturer at the moment. Hopefully that works out because it is a deal breaker if I have to pay another tooling fee for the exact same board. More as it develops.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

PS, I got a message back from the PCB manufacturer and they seem willing to work with me on the order. That's good news.
 
Last edited:
Hi! After thinking about this for a minute, if the initial run of PCBs is completely sold out it may make sense to either start a new spread sheet or break out a new section for the follow on run of PCBs.

The N8VEM XT-IDE run would be a new order with different conditions based on quantity and other factors. My plan is to order a relatively small quantity like 20 PCBs or so as a test to gauge how it goes with the new approach. Hargle's PCB run was quiite large (100 units) and I am not ready to put in that much quite yet.

Is anyone else planning on making a follow on PCB manufacturing run? We should coordinate this so we're not stomping on each other. If you are/were planning on conducting your own PCB manufacturing run would you please either post here or send me a PM? I am fairly confident that the initial bulk of the XT-IDE orders are past and now we are in a phase with a lot lower demand. It will probably trickle in over time which is a lot like how the other N8VEM PCBs work.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch
 
mikey99 said:
I downloaded a copy of IOTEST.EXE from the XT-IDE Wiki page and
ran a benchmark comparison between the XT-IDE I assembled from a
kit and a JDR MCT-IDE-8 IDE controller I purchased from eBay a
few weeks ago.
Click to expand...
I'm unfamiliar with that card. can you post pictures and possibly even dump the ROM contents out for me to investigate?
It may actually be possible that you could take aitoit's BIOS and use it on that JDR card to bump the drive support size up to "bigger that ever needed" like the XTIDE has.

I have no idea if the JDR card is using DMA but I would think DMA would
make the card much faster.
Click to expand...

yeah, it may be. THe other possibilty is that it's using memory mapped IO. This is why I'm interested in it; it may bring us some light as to how we take XTIDE to the next step.
 
I posted some info about this card awhile back , please see the following link.
There are a couple of pictures there, but I can take some better closeups if necessary.

I'll dump the rom and post that too shortly.


http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?19521-JDR-MCT-8-bit-IDE-controller


hargle said:
I'm unfamiliar with that card. can you post pictures and possibly even dump the ROM contents out for me to investigate?
It may actually be possible that you could take aitoit's BIOS and use it on that JDR card to bump the drive support size up to "bigger that ever needed" like the XTIDE has.



yeah, it may be. THe other possibilty is that it's using memory mapped IO. This is why I'm interested in it; it may bring us some light as to how we take XTIDE to the next step.
Click to expand...
 
I wanted to report that I received my card yesterday and even taking my time it only took an hour and 10 minutes to carefully assemble. I updated the BIOS to RC2 without any trouble and everything worked perfectly on the first try!

I have installed the board in a CompuAdd 10 MHz XT clone. The hard drive I'm using it is a 2 gig Seagate ST32132A and benchmarking with Norton Sys Info reports 228 KB/sec which is actually a little better then the properly interleaved MFM drives I've been using. Add to that some MUCH faster access times of this drive and I have a very snappy 10MHz XT!

Great job everyone, and hargle thanks for the perfect kitting and shipping everything so quickly--you're the man!

UPDATE: The results of an iotest benchamrk:

READ - 222.16
WRITE - 182.4

Looks like this board responds well to 10 MHz 8088s. ;)
 
Last edited:
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the info!
I amd looking for a more complete solution tho, either in kit form or assembled.
Appreciate the heads up!
Cheers Dave
 
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