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2001-32n - Static character to random garbage

dhoelzer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
523
Location
New York
Greetings!

I've been slowly doing surgery on a 2001-32N but have reached a spot where I'm stuck.

When I first picked it up I had to clean out about 20 years of mouse carcasses and nesting materials. At this point things are pretty clean. Previously I had gotten to a point where it was starting with a fairly stable image and dropping into the monitor with some SRAM issues on the screen. I think (hard to tell) I corrected the ROM problem; one of them was bad. I seem to remember that last I worked on it with the replaced eeprom it actually did get to a ready prompt. I then set out to fix the SRAM.

I distinctly recall that immediately after removing the existing SRAM, adding sockets and reinstalling I had about 30 seconds of blissful success, followed immediately by complete garbage on the screen. Assuming a cold solder joint somewhere, I redid all of the sockets (not fun). No joy.

At this point, at power on I have a screen full of some static character. A second or two later that changes to random garbage that is constantly changing. In point of fact, watching it sit there it does seem to have some sort of pattern to it (perhaps random junk cycling through the SRAM?) but I'm at a loss as to where to go next.

I did read an article or two about the 555 reset circuit sometimes causing the 6502 to do weird things. I don't have a scope, unfortunately, but I did try manually taking pin 40 on the 6502 low for a few seconds. Doing so immediately stops the movement of the random junk and gives me, more or less, a static character all across the screen. Removing the jumper immediately takes me back to junk, however.

Thoughts? Thanks!
 
you will probably think it's a silly answer, but here you have my two cents:

1) wash the board. Use hot water and a toothbrush, leave the water flows some minutes while you're removing dust with the toothbrush. Dry it with an hairdryer (I used the brazilian sun that is for free and works better than an airdryer ;-) ). I *just* fix (one hour ago, see the recent thread "8032 problem") a similar problem that way: intermittent problems, etc. Before to think washing it, I had socketed almost the whole board looking for a problem :-(

2) remove original C= sockets and put some fresh ones. I already had *many* problems with them in almost all C= boards I fixed. Often intermittent problems come for free when you're using those rusty sockets. They could appear ok when you check them with the multimeter, but they aren't.

3) I also fixed a 3032 board some weeks ago, you would take a look to that thread (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcf...T-vc-12-quot-CRT&p=281614&posted=1#post281614)

4) I also wrote a page about my 3032 fixing, if you want to take a look can be found here: http://www.verrua.org/pet_repair/index.html but you're warned that's a dummy page written by a newbie for other newbies!
 
you will probably think it's a silly answer, but here you have my two cents:

1) wash the board. Use hot water and a toothbrush, leave the water flows some minutes while you're removing dust with the toothbrush. Dry it with an hairdryer (I used the brazilian sun that is for free and works better than an airdryer ;-) ). I *just* fix (one hour ago, see the recent thread "8032 problem") a similar problem that way: intermittent problems, etc. Before to think washing it, I had socketed almost the whole board looking for a problem :-(

2) remove original C= sockets and put some fresh ones. I already had *many* problems with them in almost all C= boards I fixed. Often intermittent problems come for free when you're using those rusty sockets. They could appear ok when you check them with the multimeter, but they aren't.

3) I also fixed a 3032 board some weeks ago, you would take a look to that thread (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcf...T-vc-12-quot-CRT&p=281614&posted=1#post281614)

4) I also wrote a page about my 3032 fixing, if you want to take a look can be found here: http://www.verrua.org/pet_repair/index.html but you're warned that's a dummy page written by a newbie for other newbies!

1 - I've already washed the board. Did that quite a long time ago to remove all traces of dead mice.

2 - The sockets are actually in good shape. No rust anywhere. I'll think about this but I'd rather not desolder 12 sockets if I can avoid it.

I'll have a look at your page. Thanks!
 
2 - The sockets are actually in good shape. No rust anywhere. I'll think about this but I'd rather not desolder 12 sockets if I can avoid it.

I understand, nobody likes to do that ;-), but I disagree with you about it: all of my socket seemed to be in good shape; but after 30 years they could fail not just for rust. Many simply failed in the worst way: with intermittent issue.

However changing those sockets it's quite easy: you can extract the plastic housing from its pins simply putting a screwdriver under it (with caution at traces, of course!). The pins will remain soldered on the board and you can extract one at a time.

Well, of course gurus here can give you some more clever help; as told I'm just a newbie, just talking about the little experience I had fixing my CBMs :)
 
Well, I'll order some sockets and give it a shot.

Thanks!

Just before you change the sockets, what I did on one of my pet repairs was to take out the motherboard with the chips in place.
Then using a simple multi-meter on continuity test put one probe on the socket to be tested on the actual chip leg and the other
on the solder pad underneath the board to see if it is actually making a contact.

One of my pets had startup faults it turned out one of the pins wasn't making contact on the address line of the 6502 if I remember
correctly. Cleaned up the offending socket and hey presto ### commodore basic 4.0 ###
 
...I think (hard to tell) I corrected the ROM problem; one of them was bad. I seem to remember that last I worked on it with the replaced eeprom it actually did get to a ready prompt. I then set out to fix the SRAM...
Not to nitpick, but I assume that when you talk about SRAM you mean the main 32K RAM, which is actually DRAM (Dynamic) in that model PET; the only SRAM (Static) are the 2114 video RAM chips. I suspect you also replaced the ROM with an EPROM (erased with UV light) and not an EEPROM (electrically eraseable, no quartz window).

What are the numbers and locations of the ROM/EPROM chips?

Sounds like it might be an addressing problem; any chance you could find someone with an oscilloscope to help you out? Without any test instruments all I can suggest is checking for continuity and/or any shorts among the address lines and perhaps replacing the 'LS244 address drivers B3 and C3.

When you ground 6502/40 and the display freezes is this "static character" all the same character or are they different, and if so, is there any discernible pattern?
 
Actually, no, I specifically mean that I changed out the SRAM. I had a faulty chip in there that was sticking zeroes all over the place randomly.

Yes, I put too many E's on there. It's an EPROM.

Since I actually had 30 seconds of full functioning I seriously doubt that it's a misplaced chip which sounds like what you're implying. However, the board is currently outside drying after a thorough scrubbing following the removal of all of the old sockets. I won't have the new ones from Jameco for a few days yet so I'll ahve to get back to you.

Grounding RST freezes to a static character, not random characters. Then it resumes random characters cycling all over.

Not to nitpick, but I assume that when you talk about SRAM you mean the main 32K RAM, which is actually DRAM (Dynamic) in that model PET; the only SRAM (Static) are the 2114 video RAM chips. I suspect you also replaced the ROM with an EPROM (erased with UV light) and not an EEPROM (electrically eraseable, no quartz window).

What are the numbers and locations of the ROM/EPROM chips?

Sounds like it might be an addressing problem; any chance you could find someone with an oscilloscope to help you out? Without any test instruments all I can suggest is checking for continuity and/or any shorts among the address lines and perhaps replacing the 'LS244 address drivers B3 and C3.

When you ground 6502/40 and the display freezes is this "static character" all the same character or are they different, and if so, is there any discernible pattern?
 
Good thought but I've already ripped all of the socket tops off and desoldered all of the pins. ;) I'll let you know in a couple of days when the new sockets arrive.

Just before you change the sockets, what I did on one of my pet repairs was to take out the motherboard with the chips in place.
Then using a simple multi-meter on continuity test put one probe on the socket to be tested on the actual chip leg and the other
on the solder pad underneath the board to see if it is actually making a contact.

One of my pets had startup faults it turned out one of the pins wasn't making contact on the address line of the 6502 if I remember
correctly. Cleaned up the offending socket and hey presto ### commodore basic 4.0 ###
 
Actually, no, I specifically mean that I changed out the SRAM. I had a faulty chip in there that was sticking zeroes all over the place randomly.
It'd be less ambiguous if you used part numbers or called it video RAM; some PETs do have static main RAM...
Since I actually had 30 seconds of full functioning I seriously doubt that it's a misplaced chip which sounds like what you're implying. However, the board is currently outside drying after a thorough scrubbing following the removal of all of the old sockets. I won't have the new ones from Jameco for a few days yet so I'll ahve to get back to you.
No, I'm not just looking for a misplaced chip, and I also don't know what, if anything, you've changed since it last worked.

Grounding RST freezes to a static character, not random characters. Then it resumes random characters cycling all over.
Yes, you'd said that; I was asking if it was one character filling the entire screen and, if it's not random as you imply, what it is, or if there are different characters...

Oh well, let's see if the new sockets fix it.
 
Good thought but I've already ripped all of the socket tops off and desoldered all of the pins. ;) I'll let you know in a couple of days when the new sockets arrive.

...I had changed one at a time; at least if you have some problems, you know where to look at...
 
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I also don't know what, if anything, you've changed since it last worked.

Mike,
I think we helped dhoelzer with this 2001N PET last November. He had found a bad D000 ROM. I sent him a replacement EPROM (901465-02). Then he had a minor problem with the video screen data and we advised changing the two video static RAM chips. He replaced video RAM sockets and parts, but after 30 seconds of a good screen, the problem got worse (something broke or shorted). Now he is getting various forms of random data on screen. I would start with carefully looking at the repair work for solder splashes, etc especially around the TV RAM R/W signal (pin 10 of the RAM chips). Would you assume the CPU is still running in program? Or do we need to check the READY signal?
-Dave
 
I would start with carefully looking at the repair work for solder splashes, etc especially around the TV RAM R/W signal (pin 10 of the RAM chips). Would you assume the CPU is still running in program? Or do we need to check the READY signal?
Certainly looks like it's running; normal delay at startup and then activity of some kind which stops if you hold reset low and restarts when you release reset. It could indeed be running correctly but somehow inappropriately writing to VRAM as you suggest while it's looping through its normal program.
 
No, I'm not just looking for a misplaced chip, and I also don't know what, if anything, you've changed since it last worked.

Nothing. It worked for 30 seconds and then random characters.

Yes, you'd said that; I was asking if it was one character filling the entire screen and, if it's not random as you imply, what it is, or if there are different characters...

It must not have been clear from my response. Yes, one static character during reset.
 
This was my thought.
Certainly looks like it's running; normal delay at startup and then activity of some kind which stops if you hold reset low and restarts when you release reset. It could indeed be running correctly but somehow inappropriately writing to VRAM as you suggest while it's looping through its normal program.
 
Just an update. :)

Replaced every socket on the board. Also found a bad capacitor in the reset circuit; replaced all of them to be safe. Same behavior.

Next step: I finally broke down and bought a GQ-4X; since the system isn't in a state where I can peek RAM (it was before it's glorious 30 seconds of full functionality) I really needed another way to see what's going on in the proms. I have not had the energy yet to sit down and figure out precisely which versions of what are supposed to be in these but this definitely revealed a big problem.

UD6 seems to start strangely; 0x800 copies of 0xFF followed by code. Strange but not impossible. I have yet to compare.
UD7 looks like code throughout. Again, I haven't compared but it looks good.
UD8 reads as 0xFF throughout. Definitely not good. This chip must have failed in that 30 seconds of functioning window.
UD9 starts as UD6 does; 0x800 copies of 0xff, which still looks weird to me and possibly bad, followed by code.

I've had a quick look at Zimmers and honestly can't figure out precisely which ROMs I should be looking at; this is a 2001-32N. Anyone want to save me headaches? An important tidbit is that I picked up a 2031LP that I'm planning to connect to this beastie, so I suspect that the original images will not do me. If I remember right, there wasn't built in support for drives until something post 2.0?

Thanks!
 
Hi,

too bad the socket refresh didn't work; but hopefully it will save you future headache. I found *many* bad sockets in my PETs, that actually in case of trouble that can't be solved quicky, I start changing all the socket.

Below you can find the ROM table that works for 3032 (2001-32N, it's the same). I checked all of them personally when I was fixing my 3032.
The original one for the 3032 is the BASIC 2 / graphic keyboard romset. But in case of troubles, you would to check the other ones, too. The ROMset with business keyboard will work too, simply the keyboard map will be wrong. But since there are some differences into the code, It some circumstances, you could find your computer will work with the business keyboard set and not the other one.
I discovered my 3032 worked with basic 4 but not with basic 2. Then, I discovered the basic 2 business worked while the basic 2 graphic didn't.
Thanks to this clue, I discovered a problem (broken trace) I couldn't discover in other way.

You will need an adapter for 2732 eprom, while 2716 must be placed directly in the board socket.
If you need to build the adapter, you should find some info at www.verrua.org -> commodore -> 3032


BASIC 2..................... BASIC 4
--------------------...----------------------
kernal- f000.901465-03 kernal- f000.901465-22
.edit-2-e000.901447-24 edit- 4-e000.901447-29 << graphic keyboard
basic-2-d000.901465-02 basic-4-d000.901465-21
basic-2-c000.901465-01 basic-4-c000.901465-20
basic-4-b000.901465-23

kernal- f000.901465-03 kernal- f000.901465-22
.edit-2-e000.901474-01 edit- 4-e000.901474-02 << business keyboard
basic-2-d000.901465-02 basic-4-d000.901465-21
basic-2-c000.901465-01 basic-4-c000.901465-20
basic-4-b000.901465-23


-- Giovi


EDIT -- For some reason my table went out of alignment, even using the courier new font. Sorry for that, I'm trying to align it. I put some DOTs instead of spaces for this purpose.
 
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Hey there!

My posting lead to curiosity. The UD6 appears to be a Basic-2 with the first 0x800 bytes bad on the prom. I'm assuming the same is true of the other chip.

Regarding 2732s, I fortunately have a stack of 2532JLs which, as far as I can tell, are drop in replacements for the original chips. :) Hence the purchase of the GQ-4X!

Your notes on ROM versions is very helpful though. I have to dig out a 9volt adapter to program these chips so the burner can step up to the 24v programming voltage. I likely won't get back to it until Saturday but I will let you know what I find!

Thanks again!

Hi,

too bad the socket refresh didn't work; but hopefully it will save you future headache. I found *many* bad sockets in my PETs, that actually in case of trouble that can't be solved quicky, I start changing all the socket.

Below you can find the ROM table that works for 3032 (2001-32N, it's the same). I checked all of them personally when I was fixing my 3032.
The original one for the 3032 is the BASIC 2 / graphic keyboard romset. But in case of troubles, you would to check the other ones, too. The ROMset with business keyboard will work too, simply the keyboard map will be wrong. But since there are some differences into the code, It some circumstances, you could find your computer will work with the business keyboard set and not the other one.
I discovered my 3032 worked with basic 4 but not with basic 2. Then, I discovered the basic 2 business worked while the basic 2 graphic didn't.
Thanks to this clue, I discovered a problem (broken trace) I couldn't discover in other way.

You will need an adapter for 2732 eprom, while 2716 must be placed directly in the board socket.
If you need to build the adapter, you should find some info at www.verrua.org -> commodore -> 3032


BASIC 2 BASIC 4
-------------------- ----------------------
kernal- f000.901465-03 kernal- f000.901465-22
edit-2-e000.901447-24 edit- 4-e000.901447-29 << graphic keyboard
basic-2-d000.901465-02 basic-4-d000.901465-21
basic-2-c000.901465-01 basic-4-c000.901465-20
basic-4-b000.901465-23

kernal- f000.901465-03 kernal- f000.901465-22
edit-2-e000.901474-01 edit- 4-e000.901474-02 << business keyboard
basic-2-d000.901465-02 basic-4-d000.901465-21
basic-2-c000.901465-01 basic-4-c000.901465-20
basic-4-b000.901465-23


-- Giovi
 
I've had a quick look at Zimmers and honestly can't figure out precisely which ROMs I should be looking at; this is a 2001-32N. Anyone want to save me headaches?
Well, if you'd answered when I asked back in post #7 what the numbers on the ROMs are then you'd know by now, but since you prefer to keep it a secret maybe you can find them in the table that our Italian friend has graciously compiled ;-)
 
I missed your question at the time since I was not investigating the content of the ROM at the time, but it's now moot as I've already found it's a Basic 2.0 vintage system.

Thanks though.

Well, if you'd answered when I asked back in post #7 what the numbers on the ROMs are then you'd know by now, but since you prefer to keep it a secret maybe you can find them in the table that our Italian friend has graciously compiled ;-)
 
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