How many Model II owners here?

[lowen]

I think one of the reasons for the rarity of the Model 16s is that the plastic that they used in the case construction must have some chemical difference to the case in the Model II and the Model 4s. ...

If I had one and were to ship it I would probably remove the chassis completely from the case and ship in separate boxes, much like one has to ship SGI O2's, which likewise have notoriously brittle cases. The really difficult part is that the screw bosses are getting really brittle, too, and really need reinforcement or replacement of some kind before reassembly is attempted (some folks have seen the bosses in an O2 break during disassembly). To be completely safe I'd probably ship the two case halves in separate boxes and use several means of preventing fracture of the plastic (plastic overwrap (Saran wrap) plus foam rubber cut to fit or similar; if that case moves relative to its packing it could easily fracture; then a generous layer of bubble wrap with a layer of crumpled paper over that).

The 12/16B/6000's cases were a bit more robust as I recall, but I think I've seen a few horror stories there, too.

 

[pski]

After a bit of experience in successful and unsuccessful Model II/16/16B/12/6000 shipment receiving, I would try to get the seller to deliver or remove the disk drives and ship them separately. The heavy drives add so much weight to the frame when the plastic case takes a hit. The Model IIs definitely fare better than the rest.

Here are my experiences that I can recall in order from best to worst:

1. Seller delivered personally to me. The best! Offer a shipping reward, reiterate how easy it is for these to get damaged and some sellers who are within a days driving distance may do this.
2. Seller removed disk drives and packed separately. No damage. But is is rare to find someone who knows how to do that properly.
3. Seller packed the computer incredibly well. Rigid foam, peanuts, etc. Still had damage.
4. Seller dropped a 6000 in a box with no padding. See my post from earlier this year on how that ended.

Going forward, I would try to drive to pick one up but the odds of finding a decent one within reasonable driving distance are pretty slim.

 

[k0d3g3ar]

If I had one and were to ship it I would probably remove the chassis completely from the case and ship in separate boxes, much like one has to ship SGI O2's, which likewise have notoriously brittle cases. The really difficult part is that the screw bosses are getting really brittle, too, and really need reinforcement or replacement of some kind before reassembly is attempted (some folks have seen the bosses in an O2 break during disassembly). To be completely safe I'd probably ship the two case halves in separate boxes and use several means of preventing fracture of the plastic (plastic overwrap (Saran wrap) plus foam rubber cut to fit or similar; if that case moves relative to its packing it could easily fracture; then a generous layer of bubble wrap with a layer of crumpled paper over that).

The 12/16B/6000's cases were a bit more robust as I recall, but I think I've seen a few horror stories there, too.

Well I just received a Model 16B and the seller really packaged it well. Double boxed, padded throughout. And we chose FedEx Ground.

Even with that, FedEx must have dropped it because the exterior fan was smashed and the top case had severed from the bottom. Thankfully other than a smaller hairline crack on the back of the top case, the rest of it is fine. There is no cosmetic damage that I can't repair. However the seller didn't remove the disk drives, and that included the heavy hard disk in the unit. I found that loose inside its cage. On power up, there appears to be power across the board but so far no sign of any CPU activity. I need to do some more electronic diagnosis on this one, but I think its recoverable.

Again, this would have been a much easier experience if FedEx did their job. Of course we have no control of that. The seller did, however, go out of their way to pack this properly. But they can't really do much about FedEx dropping it 10 feet. I have some fun times ahead to restore it, but I think its doable.

Myles

 

[geoffm3]

I don't have one, never have, would love to as I'm fascinated with oddball personal computers.

I am still a little puzzled about the original market for these things. I guess it has to do with my favorite distinction of being a "business" computer (i.e. what, exactly, constitutes a "business" computer?). I guess the 8" floppy still had more storage capacity, discounting quad density drives of course. Seems like reductions in case size going to 5.25" would have made it more marketable... then again, maybe they were more popular than what I'm thinking.

I only recall ever seeing two Model IIs... one in a business, powered off, and another in a pawn shop, also powered off. This would have been some years after the fact, but still in the 80's.

 

[pjhacnau]

I don't have one, never have, would love to as I'm fascinated with oddball personal computers.

I am still a little puzzled about the original market for these things. I guess it has to do with my favorite distinction of being a "business" computer (i.e. what, exactly, constitutes a "business" computer?). I guess the 8" floppy still had more storage capacity, discounting quad density drives of course. Seems like reductions in case size going to 5.25" would have made it more marketable... then again, maybe they were more popular than what I'm thinking.

I only recall ever seeing two Model IIs... one in a business, powered off, and another in a pawn shop, also powered off. This would have been some years after the fact, but still in the 80's.

Note: I don't own a Model II and you should consider this as speculation (and it makes sense to me so it must be right)

Tandy did sell "business" configurations of the Model 1/III/IV, so there is no question Tandy themselves saw overlap. However, take a look at two key specs of the Model II vs Model 1:

* CPU speed ~1.8MHz(Model 1) vs 4Mhz(Model II)
* Max Memory 48K(Model 1) vs 64K(Model II - if you wanted BASIC it was loaded off disk)

I believe the display quality of the MII was much better than the M1 too. Don't know if the MII had lower-case as standard (someone jump in here ...)

So apart from the disk storage, the Model II was significantly more powerful than the Model 1. That relationship held; compare a Model 16/6000 to a Model 4. However that extra power cost a lot more. And I'd say the 8" drives were an anachronism with no real advantage by the time you compare a 6000 to a 4D.

(The other thing the 16/6000 could do was support 2(?) serial terminals allowing for 3 concurrent users)

 

[NF6X]

(The other thing the 16/6000 could do was support 2(?) serial terminals allowing for 3 concurrent users)

And that's out of the box. My Model 6000 came with two 3-port RS-232 cards installed. I don't know how well it would perform, but presumably it could support 8 remote terminals that way?

 

[pjhacnau]

And that's out of the box. My Model 6000 came with two 3-port RS-232 cards installed. I don't know how well it would perform, but presumably it could support 8 remote terminals that way?

The killer would be the memory; what was the max memory available for the 6000? We had significantly more than 8 terminals connected to a VAX 11/780 at uni (5MHz 32 bit processor), but it could have up to 8MB of memory.

 

[pski]

* Max Memory 48K(Model 1) vs 64K(Model II - if you wanted BASIC it was loaded off disk)

Actually, the Model II theoretically supported up to 512K. The upper 32K ram was bank switchable. 8 banks of (2) 32K pages was supported which allowed switching out up to (15) 32K pages in the upper bank. Note that it was not physically possible to put this much RAM in the machine without some serious modification, but a base Model II with 4 cards (CPU, Video/Keyboard, 64k, FDC) did have a number of open slots available for additional RAM cards.

 

[lowen]

The killer would be the memory; what was the max memory available for the 6000? We had significantly more than 8 terminals connected to a VAX 11/780 at uni (5MHz 32 bit processor), but it could have up to 8MB of memory.

Ok, Eskimo North to the best of my recollection had the most maxxed-out T6K ever. Quoting from a Linux Journal interview with Robert Dinse (aka nanook):

I decided to go multi-user with Eskimo and started looking for a workable platform. Networked Apples didn't look like the answer. MPM looked capable, but I felt that the address space limitations and hardware dependencies would limit its future lifespan. Thus, I decided on UNIX; the only affordable UNIX system I could get my hands on was a Tandy 16B with an ugly, primitive version of Xenix. That was our entry into the UNIX world, initially with four phone lines.

We took that machine as far as we could, basically upgrading to a Tandy 6000 with 4MB of RAM, two 70MB disks and 11 lines.

(Interview is at http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3102 and is a fun read, since it was written in 1998.....) I was a subscriber to Eskimo North at that time, taking a partial Usenet feed with UUCP and C-News on my own Tandy 6000, but I came in on the very tail end of Eskimo's time on the T6K, as nanook was already in the process of upgrading to Sun equipment.

And, of course, look at NeXT's post on this very forum (NeXT, I wish I had found this forum and your posts a couple or three years sooner, and I'm sorry I wasn't around to help you out a bit!) at http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?24146-Can-t-identify-several-model-II-16-6000-cards (NeXT, that 'stacked chip' board, if the bottom layer was also populated with 256K chips, was a 1MB board modded to be a 2MB board!) and then of course the thread on comp.sys.tandy about the 4MEG board (Kelly, could you provide a photo of that thing?) : https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/comp.sys.tandy/rg0bPRtV2Xk

 

[Chuck(G)]

I don't have one, never have, would love to as I'm fascinated with oddball personal computers.

I am still a little puzzled about the original market for these things. I guess it has to do with my favorite distinction of being a "business" computer (i.e. what, exactly, constitutes a "business" computer?). I guess the 8" floppy still had more storage capacity, discounting quad density drives of course. Seems like reductions in case size going to 5.25" would have made it more marketable... then again, maybe they were more popular than what I'm thinking.

Business computers (I worked for a time for an early manufacturer) offered the capability to run the basic accounting applications. Accounts Receivable, Accounts Payable, General Ledger, Inventory and Payroll. If you run a business of any size that uses accrual accounting, you need these basic activities to even have the faintest idea of your operation's financial state of health. If you get audited by the tax man, you bring your records for this at a minimum. Note that all of these things eventually reflect back to a single balance sheet, so they're all related.

If you're of a size where different people look after different aspects, for example, the person in the warehouse, versus the person who handles payroll, you need more than one terminal--today, we usually network systems to do that.

Back in the day, you also might add word processing so that all memos and other documents were created and filed with the same software.

There's a reason that "business computers" cost significantly more than "personal computers". And the software had better work correctly and the hardware be reliable.

P.S. For those who are actively studying in a technical field, I heartily recommend a couple of courses in accounting. It may not be as exciting as your primary field, but business runs on accounting and at least a basic knowledge of the way things work proved for me to be no less valuable than a summer course in touch-typing.

 

[mloewen]

Ok, Eskimo North to the best of my recollection had the most maxxed-out T6K ever. Quoting from a Linux Journal interview with Robert Dinse (aka nanook):

(Interview is at http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3102 and is a fun read, since it was written in 1998.....) I was a subscriber to Eskimo North at that time, taking a partial Usenet feed with UUCP and C-News on my own Tandy 6000, but I came in on the very tail end of Eskimo's time on the T6K, as nanook was already in the process of upgrading to Sun equipment.

In 1985/86, Jason Ward and I wrote a multiuser BBS which we ran on his XENIX-based Tandy 6000HD in Sumner, WA. His 6000HD had a 15MB internal drive, 3-port serial board and (I believe) 1MB of RAM. Jason installed 4 phone lines with 1200 baud modems, and we ran the BBS from 1986-1988, until hardware problems with the Tandy killed it. The BBS was a room-based system with a command structure similar to the Citadel system, and had a real-time chat facility that was almost constantly in use. No file downloads at all.

Bob Dinse wanted a copy of our software for Eskimo North, so we gave him a compiled version to play with (we weren't ready to give up the source code, at that point). I believe he ran it for a short time on his 6000. That was probably in 1986.

I eventually ported the BBS software to SunOS, ESIX, and finally to Linux. By that time, I had added file up/download and a read-only USENET feed. I finally took it down in 1996.

I finally found a Tandy 6000HD for my collection, with 1MB RAM, internal and external 15MB drives and 3-port serial board. Just for giggles, I resurrected the 1986 BBS code, connected a few of the serial ports to a terminal server, and put it online for a couple of days for MARCH club members to play with. A blast from the past.

http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/Tandy/Model6000HD.html

 

[NF6X]

Would you be willing to share that original Xenix BBS code? That would be really cool, in my opinion!

 

[pjhacnau]

A question to TRS-Ian, if you are following this thread. Including the recent two machines that Kevin Parker got (the 16b and the 12 -> 16 conversion) how many "big" TRS-80s have you come across in Australia in recent times?

 

[lowen]

...A blast from the past.

Mike, it is good to see you here! Been a long time since we first corresponded, through eskimo as I recall.

http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/Tandy/Model6000HD.html

Good memories..... well, and not so good, too, with some of the Xenix 'quirks' to get stuff to compile.

 

[geoffm3]

There's a reason that "business computers" cost significantly more than "personal computers". And the software had better work correctly and the hardware be reliable.

I think that's probably the biggest differentiator. J/k... I know there are other features that are important. Apart from storage capacity, what differentiates a Model II from say other contemporary CP/M based personal computers? My history on anything pre-80's is kinda sketchy.

 

[Chuck(G)]

I think that's probably the biggest differentiator. J/k... I know there are other features that are important. Apart from storage capacity, what differentiates a Model II from say other contemporary CP/M based personal computers? My history on anything pre-80's is kinda sketchy.

Well, the Model II could bank-switch in more memory, but I'm not sure that that's a difference. After all, my little Amstrad "Joyce" has 512KB installed--and it's no high-end anything. The Model II did have the capability for more than a single serial port and so could run a multi-user system such as MP/M. One could put forth the notion that it was better-constructed than the average Tandy product, but that's not saying much.

 

[lowen]

... I know there are other features that are important. Apart from storage capacity, what differentiates a Model II from say other contemporary CP/M based personal computers? My history on anything pre-80's is kinda sketchy.

Simple: TRSDOS and the Radio Shack one-stop-software-shop.

Chuck touches this in his post; the Model II had a great deal of real business software available from Radio Shack. While Word Processing is 'real' business software, that's not the category I'm talking about. I'm talking about the equivalent to QuickBooks, which Radio Shack had (in separate, but compatible, programs that cost quite a lot of money but did the job and worked together).

Another thing to remember is that the II was not originally a CP/M computer, nor is it primarily a CP/M computer. While P&T and Lifeboat both did a CP/M for the II, it's not CP/M that made this machine.

Some might say that Scripsit made that computer; at least Isaac Asimov thought so, using a Model II and Scripsit to write over 11 million words over the span of nine years ( see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripsit ). Why not WordStar? Well, it would be interesting to see which one actually came first, but Radio Shack supported Scripsit and data interchange with other Radio Shack programs, along with some pretty good features and full support for all of Radio Shack's printers. Again, the business users actually liked the 'one stop shop' nature of that brand.

Radio Shack followed the IBMish 'walled garden' model and went several steps beyond what 'app stores' like Apple's do. Radio Shack sold serviceable software at business prices that solved business problems. Radio Shack was a one-stop-shop for all their customers' business needs, from the computer to the software to the printers, paper, supplies, notebooks, and even the furniture. They were definitely and emphatically not hobbyist with the II line. And, like with their other lines, they basically pretended that there was no third-party software available.

Note that I'm not condoning that practice; just explaining what the value-add of the Radio Shack brand was for many business users of the time. If anything, Radio Shack was just trying too hard to be taken seriously and apparently were worried that if their customers found out that there was a such thing as 'third party' stuff that they, Radio Shack, would lose customers.

EDIT: Yes, TRSDOS in and of itself was part of the business appeal. TRSDOS has the concept of access control with user and owner passwords on a per-file basis (that is, the user must supply the password for the file, not for a 'login'), disk master passwords, and user-level privileges. So you could have a document owned by the CEO with the CEO's owner password and a user password that could be used for read-only access by assistants; you could even backup-limit disks and copy-protect files (being able to read a file didn't mean that the OS's copy command would copy it!). And TRSDOS in later iterations hid raw disk I/O routines for one and obfuscated security routines for another. Sure, those measures can be broken like all security measures can, but they did provide a modicum of security for most businesses.

 

[geoffm3]

Simple: TRSDOS and the Radio Shack one-stop-software-shop.

Chuck touches this in his post; the Model II had a great deal of real business software available from Radio Shack. While Word Processing is 'real' business software, that's not the category I'm talking about. I'm talking about the equivalent to QuickBooks, which Radio Shack had (in separate, but compatible, programs that cost quite a lot of money but did the job and worked together).

Another thing to remember is that the II was not originally a CP/M computer, nor is it primarily a CP/M computer. While P&T and Lifeboat both did a CP/M for the II, it's not CP/M that made this machine.

Some might say that Scripsit made that computer; at least Isaac Asimov thought so, using a Model II and Scripsit to write over 11 million words over the span of nine years ( see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripsit ). Why not WordStar? Well, it would be interesting to see which one actually came first, but Radio Shack supported Scripsit and data interchange with other Radio Shack programs, along with some pretty good features and full support for all of Radio Shack's printers. Again, the business users actually liked the 'one stop shop' nature of that brand.

Radio Shack followed the IBMish 'walled garden' model and went several steps beyond what 'app stores' like Apple's do. Radio Shack sold serviceable software at business prices that solved business problems. Radio Shack was a one-stop-shop for all their customers' business needs, from the computer to the software to the printers, paper, supplies, notebooks, and even the furniture. They were definitely and emphatically not hobbyist with the II line. And, like with their other lines, they basically pretended that there was no third-party software available.

Note that I'm not condoning that practice; just explaining what the value-add of the Radio Shack brand was for many business users of the time. If anything, Radio Shack was just trying too hard to be taken seriously and apparently were worried that if their customers found out that there was a such thing as 'third party' stuff that they, Radio Shack, would lose customers.

Well, that's an important differentiator. I used SuperScripsit ages ago on the Model III and liked it, once I got through all the audio cassette training tapes. Talk about a difference between old computers and modern ones, eh? I know nothing at all about the Model II library apart from it looks like they did a good job in hitting all the businessy type applications. Still, I guess you could argue that there's not anything technically that prevents the same types of applications runnning on a number of other contemporary machines, which is what I was trying to get at (since 80 column displays with 64kb of RAM on a 4MHz Z80 aren't exactly Model II specific).

 

[geoffm3]

I'm a fan currentish Apple computers. It seems like in the case of Radio Shack there were some "intangibles" similar to how there is with some Apple products. For that I can give the II some respect.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Some might say that Scripsit made that computer; at least Isaac Asimov thought so, using a Model II and Scripsit to write over 11 million words over the span of nine years ( see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripsit ). Why not WordStar? Well, it would be interesting to see which one actually came first, but Radio Shack supported Scripsit and data interchange with other Radio Shack programs, along with some pretty good features and full support for all of Radio Shack's printers. Again, the business users actually liked the 'one stop shop' nature of that brand.

WordStar = 1979, but WYSIWYG, which is why it sold so well (at one point, MicroPro was the largest personal computer software company in the world) Most of the earlier word processing software, such as Electric Pencil, was more of an editor plus text-formatter, like Unix nroff.

I managed to get my hands on an early IMSAI copy (0.94) and was blown away. To be sure, there were other word processing packages, but, aside from dedicated units (e.g. BRAVO for the Xerox Star), most weren't WYSIWYG. It's easy to see why WordStar occupied the position it did before competitors caught up.