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Why?

Erik said:
Fear not. The VCF Europa is probably a lot closer!

You just missed the 4.0 event, but 5.0 is only 11 months away!
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Ho yus! Erik, my boy, you just made my day :wink: ...

München is still a good drive away, but all things considered it's doable. And if I join venture with the other Danish collectors I know, we can split the trip! Cool!

Thanks for the tip! :mrgreen:
 
Difficult question to answer...

Difficult question to answer...

I suppose the answer that I would give without thinking would be "To save them from the landfill or worse", but that doesn't really cover all of it.

I got started with computers in mid-1982. I was in the Navy (U.S.), and had just been assigned to a teaching outfit near Virginia Beach, VA. One of my "collateral" duties was to substitute for the student coordinators when I wasn't teaching. We were using a DEC PDP/11-7 something or other, I no longer remember exactly. I was given an account on the computer, and from that moment on, I was hooked.

Later that year, I bought a VIC-20. I kept it for about four months, then got the C-64. I progressed through the TRS-80's (Model 4 / 4P's), then got my first "almost" IBM compatible (Tandy 1000).

I'm going to be 44 years old next month, and I suppose my facination with collecting antique micro computers and their books could be attributed to "middle-age crazy". Either way, I think it really brings me back to a time when computers were actually fun to use, and not just a job.
 
re "Why ddo you collect --- "

re "Why ddo you collect --- "

It occured to me that when we mention that one very good reason for collecting them is to preserve their history before it is lost forwver. I did a quick brain scan trying to think of something comparable in some way. It struck me that their is a product on the market that costs a lot and yet is made obsolete almost yearly by new developments,and while it will cost you a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars or more this year will be worth a few bucks in a yard sale in a year of two. Yet I don't know of anyone who collects them and so their history is disappearing as fast as their replacemets are designed. That is the Golf Club!
COMMENTS, OR OTHER EXAMPLES?
 
Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

olddataman said:
COMMENTS, OR OTHER EXAMPLES?
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Yeah, anything ever invented by Ron Popiel. They come and they go, and are soon forgotten. When's the last time you saw a Veg-O-Matic?

--T
 
Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

"olddataman" wrote:

> It occured to me that when we mention that one very good reason for
> collecting them is to preserve their history before it is lost forwver. I did
> a quick brain scan trying to think of something comparable in some
> way. It struck me that their is a product on the market that costs a lot
> and yet is made obsolete almost yearly by new developments,and while
> it will cost you a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars or more this year
> will be worth a few bucks in a yard sale in a year of two. Yet I don't
> know of anyone who collects them and so their history is disappearing
> as fast as their replacemets are designed. That is the Golf Club!

> COMMENTS, OR OTHER EXAMPLES?

Yes firstly, even though Computers decrease in value very quickly, it's fairly much the same as a car, which while it doesn't loose it's value as fast, it still does it. Also, like cars people collect the old computers - you don't see anyone going around collecting a series of new cars, but they do it for old cars - don't they!

However, it's interesting to note, that people have started collecting IBM compatables, like XTs, PCJnrs, 286s, 386s, 486s etc & have started playing around with their capabilities (not necessarily poke around with the Motherboard). Using the right software, these are still interesting machines, but it's when people start looking what can it run, they obviously show their age - those machines are better off running what was written for them & not what can it run.

It's fun if you do this in layers, firstly you can pick an OS targeted for that system, then a programming language for that system & applications available for that system.
Virtually all the above mentioned systems & other early IBM based systems, can do command line based OSes, GUIs are a little bit trickier, however get trickier when they become big. For example OS/2 Warp runs fine on a 386, but applications tend to drag it into a 486 is recommended slant. Pre Warp is perhaps a better 386 alternative, because you're not looking into Warp software. And then you have the issues about is Warp back compatable with earlier software. Windows 3.x is simular, because again you have software which recommends a 486 over a 386.
GUIs are basically the reason why people upgrade all the time & it's more involved more now as last years machines are suddenly twice as slow as the most current computer!

But just getting back to the old programming ways, the reason why programming languages used to sit on a layer lower than an application was because you could talk to the machines hardware as well as the system, compiled programs may 'talk' to the machines hardware, but the end user has no control over it (unless they poked into it - which again is programming) - they just do what the program allows.

CP/M User.
 
Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

CP/M User said:
However, it's interesting to note, that people have started collecting IBM compatables, like XTs, PCJnrs, 286s, 386s, 486s etc & have started playing around with their capabilities (not necessarily poke around with the Motherboard). Using the right software, these are still interesting machines, but it's when people start looking what can it run, they obviously show their age - those machines are better off running what was written for them & not what can it run.
Click to expand...

Lol, That's where I'm at, it's called "The Next Generation of computer collectors". I was born around the same time as the IBM XT came out (1983), so while many who are old enough to remember the PDP's and IMSAI machines, my first experience was on the IBM PS/2's and white box AT clones of the late 80's.

Some of it is nostalgia for those old AT clones I used to hammer on as a little kid in school. Some of it is because I find it fun as heck to work on hardware, and the older and more bizzare the more fun it is to work on (with the most fun coming from stuff that involves soldering irons and reading pinout charts and so-on). Some of it is playing those games and enjoying strange perhipherals and luxuries on the hardware that me and the family could not afford when I was 8 (I have a 486 I rebuilt to specs that would have cost between $8000-10000 in 1993 all for around $30 total not counting external perhipherals). Then there's the construction aespect too. I love working with my hands for fun, and it's kind of fun to take an old bent up computer chassis, straighten it out, repaint it, modify it to modern standards or put some really hot old hardware under the hood, and make it scream. I find it just as fun to even sell it off and pass it to someone else (with me often willing to give tech support on my creations). Just out of collecting, rebuilding, recycling, and modifying old IBM compatibles, I have learned what's taken others 20 years to learn. I've known some "been there done that" techs who still miss something such as low level formatting hard drives (and why to or why to not do it).

It kind of bugs me how many people just don't "get it" though, mainly being those that ask why, as I find most of them are the same ones who go "why not just buy one NEW computer" and continue to nag me on about this year after year, whilst I'm getting along fine on the hardware I've built myself for peanuts out of old battered GEMs, IBMs, and Compaqs. My thought is the same as someone said about the same situation earlier in this thread "Mind Your Own Business". Maybe some people do allright with one HP Pavilion desktop of current vintage, but that person just is not me.
 
Mad-Mike, you're a man after my own heart. People used to not understand when I told them that out of the 150-odd computers they saw sittin around my house, that I only had one computer that was actually useful. All the rest were just my toys to play with, and the one useful one was arguably the dumbest one of the bunch. For years, I considered my 32Kb Tandy 102 my only useful computer, on the theory that I have only one real use for a computer, one task that I can do better with a computer than without, and that's writing. I was doing a lot of writing at the time, and all of it was done on the 102, hence, my only useful computer, with one-tenth the memory of the lowliest XT in the house.

--T
 
Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

Re: re "Why ddo you collect --- "

"Mad-Mike" wrote:

> It kind of bugs me how many people just don't "get it" though, mainly
> being those that ask why, as I find most of them are the same ones who
> go "why not just buy one NEW computer" and continue to nag me on
> about this year after year, whilst I'm getting along fine on the hardware
> I've built myself for peanuts out of old battered GEMs, IBMs, and
> Compaqs. My thought is the same as someone said about the same
> situation earlier in this thread "Mind Your Own Business". Maybe some
> people do allright with one HP Pavilion desktop of current vintage, but
> that person just is not me.

I think people who don't "get it" generally bug everyone here - after all it's something we all have in common. Usually that group of people just think we're nuts - even though they have no status when it comes to be judgeamental & no idea when it comes to how many groups are out there supporting their old computer systems.

Besides that, the only real differences we have maybe opinions about what's good & bad.

Todays society have learned to embrace an upgrade every 3 or 4 years, so the software companies have looked into ways of updating software automatically - particularly when you're on the Internet. And then there's the con artists writing programs which aren't necessarily viruses, but annoying programs which slow down your computer.

They should start thinking about going back to the lowest demonitor, find which computer which runs Windows XP successfully well & write software for it.

CP/M User.
 
re Why?

re Why?

Doctor Pepper wrote:...
Either way, I think it really brings me back to a time when computers were actually fun to use, and not just a job.

I agree with his thoght 100%, but it illustrates a point I have spent many hours trying to think of a way to demonstrate. I feel the same kind of nostalga, except that the computers I think about as being "fun" and challenging and demanding of ones knoswledge and experience are the machines from the 1960s and early 1970's when we fixed computers at the component level, trouble-shot by using the console switches and lights to enter short programs that gradually caused the trouble to reveal itself and used the logic equations to verify that the trouble was isolated, then determine what component was failing to act right using a good scope and then repaired the card that was failing. Great fun and occasioinally good for a 96 hour week, but man oh man did you feel good when it was working again. These miccrocomputers are so filled with monster chips with all of the logic inside that it takes a guy with a PHD in solid state physics and another in electronics and I don't know what all to design the chips and nobody knows what is inside them. How many of those of you that were born after 1970 or so know what a "flip/flop" or a "Johnson Counter" or a "One-Shot MV" are?
Ray
 
RE WHY

RE WHY

Terry, you are a scream. There are various types of Jonson Counters, but I never ran acoss any like you describe. The Johnson couters I refer to are a string of flip-flops connectd in s loop. depending on the type of flp-flop and the way they are cloccked and connect togther, you can make a whole variety of timing functions.
as an example from a single Johnson counter you can decode all of the timing singles needed to develop a televixion raster.
Ray
 
No, no, in a square. The ones in the circle would be nerds, wouldn't they ?
Because, of course, only nerds wouldn't be able to figure out it's called a circle-j***

Just tapped into this thread, God only knows where it's been, so I may be a bit off-topic, but hey...

Johnston counters were popular for a while, because with them you could avoid the noticable 'glitch' that took place when back-propagating through tons of gates to restart the count.
The simple elegance of them kinda faded with Motorolas 100K ECL family.

Some one said they were used in TV's, a reference would be apprecieted, I do recall early RCA and Zenith sets. when they started to use counters to count of the horizontal retrace, doing som ewierd stuff, but I've never seen a Johnson implementation to handle vertical counts in a TV.

Other stuff, I agree with Mad Mike, I gotta get under the hood.
I've been futzing around with Windows since it was just a yet another dos shell.

I haven't noticed any real increase in speed. In the sense of turning it on, and it's ready to do some work.
I recently put DOS 3.3 on a P4/Xeon. I turned it on, it was there, at my command. Now I could decide, what to load.
I like that bit, decide what to load.
What I can't stand about Windows, and current versions of Linux, is that everything loads up front.
I much prefer the older 'simpler' OS's, that load quickly, sure, they're dumb, and it's up to you to load the smarts.
I mean, folks, really, do I need to suffer through the soundcard driver loading when I turn my system on, especially if it's going to be something like an FTP server ?
Pooh.
I sure do hope some of this is on topic to something, somewhere.

Patscc
 
patscc said:
.
I mean, folks, really, do I need to suffer through the soundcard driver loading when I turn my system on, especially if it's going to be something
like an FTP Server.
Patscc
Click to expand...

That's why I like the old AT standard better, everything is on a card. Just use what you need. Who needs 3-D accelerated NVIDIA graphics, 3-D digial 5.1 audio, much less the fancy speakers to be driven or the huge 19" DVI XGA monitor to go with it. If I were to make a web server, it'd just be a bare, plain, beige tower, a network card, a VGA card, and something to drive the floppy, CD-ROM/RW, and hard disks (and of course a simple little mobo with a CPU).

The great thing I loved about DOS 6 and later is that you could do a multiple boot config. Most of my Windows 3.1 machines have 3 menu options.....

1.) Boot Clean - Great for removing conflicting memory management or for performing "administration" on the system
2.) Load DOS with drivers for old games and programs that require them, usually with everything that can be tagged into high memory thrown there so I can get almost all of my 640K base RAM back.
3.) Load Windows For Workgroups 3.11, obvious, and as of late I've been toying with ditching this for Arachne. I hardly chat on AOL Instant Message anymore, might as well just simplify my systems.

I've done too much work under the hood. I've had so much odd and strange old IBM compatible hardware over my time working on said machines that little seems new to me, I need to get more into the software aespect, then that's why I'm starting to learn C+ and Assembly when I feel the motivation to do so.
 
To collect..or not to collect...that is the question???

To collect..or not to collect...that is the question???

Hello all,

I'm relatively new to the list, but sadly not new to the hobby? I collect because I'm predisposed to it. I collect everything!...er well except door knobs....I had to draw the line somewhere! Before hobby computers, and yes I'm that old, I collected computing gun-sights, and Bombsights, like the Norden and the Serry S-1, then Teletypes, then all types of military surplus, aircraft radios, just a lot of tech stuff. You name it, I've probably had it and sold it, still have it, or know the SOB that beat me to it on ebay!
Just to show you how bad it is, I even have a working, STRATUS XA-2000 Model 80, in my collection!...running VOS! How many people on the list can say that!?!?! How many people on the list even know what I'm talking about?

Okay, I guess you have figured out that I am probably certifiable, single, and maybe even a geek? And yes I probably would have been stoned as a herectic in ancient times, (who knows, maybe I was, reincarnation and all), but I enjoy sharing the stories and the experiences of others and with others.

When it comes to the Altairs, and IMSAI's it's probably a Mid-Life crisis kinda thing?...I built my first one in '76 upgraded it and eventually morphed it into a Compupro of sorts, and sold it all for $500 in the mid 80's to help fund a Macintosh. Then about 7 years ago I started picking up every board I could find, until I had assembled my ultimate Altair "b" system! But now just knowing that I can walk into the " Gallery" in my home, flip a few switches, here the click of a Pertec FD-400 head load, and that little machine gun noise from the 33 that says "MEMORY SIZE?", is kinda like the smell of fresh coffee in the morning, (okay Mountain Dew for the die-hards), a little thing that makes me feel comfortable, that all is right with the world, and it makes me feel good!

Hey that's the answer! It makes me feel good, hell I feel great! That's why I collect! Do you think that reason would fly if I had a wife and kids?

Okay that's why I'm single! What can I, say I'm a sucker for anything with a set of flashing lights! That, and my "lounge edicate" leaves room for improvement....Hey baby, nice rack....mounts...are you booting anyone else currently?....wanna toggle, or go right to the PROM?...Did I mention that I was certifiable???

UEOGUY===something else I majorly collect!

[/img]
 
"patscc" wrote:

> I recently put DOS 3.3 on a P4/Xeon. I turned it on, it was there, at
> my command. Now I could decide, what to load.
> I like that bit, decide what to load.

> What I can't stand about Windows, and current versions of Linux, is that
> everything loads up front.

> I much prefer the older 'simpler' OS's, that load quickly, sure, they're
> dumb, and it's up to you to load the smarts.

Why would they have to be dumb? The beauty of DOS is you can easily set it up have your drivers going whatever, it's a great feature.

CP/M User.
 
CP/M User:Why would they have to be dumb? The beauty of DOS is you can easily set it up have your drivers going whatever, it's a great feature.
Click to expand...

Basically, that's what I meant. Perhaps dumb was a poor choice of word, I picked it to illustrate that out of the box, DOS only runs a few simple services. I meant 'dumb' in the best possible way.
Windows, and the 'default' installation of a lot of the current Linux distribs, install and run everthing and the kitchen sink.
It's just that with DOS, old versions of Linux, OS/2, you've got a lot more control over what loads, and when it loads, than with current versions Windows.
My preference in an OS is to extend it with drivers and apps, rather than something that has a massive footprint and loads all sorts of stuff behind my back.
Sorry if anyone got the impression I was picking on DOS or CP/M'

patscc
 
I grew up drooling over this hardware. I became aware of personal computers around 1981 and devoured everything I could about them. My parents supported my habbit, which even though it wasn't a lot of money was still quite a bit more than normal hobbies, like baseball card collecting.

At school I used original Apple ][s and ][+s, ranging from 16K to 48K RAM. My first machine at home was a Timex Sinclar 1000, which I still have but is in a state of disrepair. (Keyboard problems, and all of the software has probably suffered bit rot.)

My second machine was the PCjr, which was far more capable than the C64s, Adams, and other machines people were buying. It cost a lot of money too - I had to deliver a lot of newspapers to swing that. (NYC doesn't have paperboys anymore .. that faded out over the last 20 years.)

The PCjr got me to college before I finally upgraded to a used IBM PC AT. Compared to a PC or XT it was limited, but I didn't compare it to those machines. I compared it to what I did the day before, and I kept finding ways to make better use of it. Back then WordStar 3.31 was my word processor and Procomm 2.4.3 was my most used program. Zbasic, Turbo Pascal, etc. were all heavily used too. I did a lot of programming and learned a lot of computer science on that machine.

After college I went to work for IBM. It was almost destiny. I'm a lot more cynical now about it though. :)

The Jr was in hiding from 1992 to 2000. I dusted it off once or twice during the years. Finally in 2000 it occured to me that I had to start writing about the machine and archiving the software, or it was going to go to the bit bucket. And so I wrote 'Mike's PCjr Page' (http://www.brutman.com). That put me in touch with a lot of other like minded people, and started a mini-PCjr revival.

I'm not primarily a collector. I have a lot of PCjr equipment, but I'm more interested in seeing it to archive it or describe it for other people to use. There are a lot of things I'll never obtain because they are so rare, but that's ok - I just want to see them once, learn what they are, and make that available for other people.

As for other machines, I appreciate them all. Back in the early to mid 1980s machines were diverse and varied. The Apple ][s, C64s, Ataris, Tandy TRS-80 line, the Mindset, the Jupiter Ace, the Sinclairs, etc. are all fascinating to me for their variety. I love the PC, XT, and AT because they represent wonderful designs. I'm quite a bit less partial to clones, and completely indifferent to modern machines.

Mike
 
"patscc" wrote:

>> Why would they have to be dumb? The beauty of DOS is you can
>> easily set it up have your drivers going whatever, it's a great feature.

> Basically, that's what I meant. Perhaps dumb was a poor choice of
> word, I picked it to illustrate that out of the box, DOS only runs a few
> simple services. I meant 'dumb' in the best possible way.

Perhaps 'Low maintenance' is what you're looking for. Those early Operating Systems don't need a lot of Maintenance done for them & -you- can add the stuff you want, instead of having the system adding whatever bloatware it -thinks- you need.

To put it simply, designing an Operating System for -Everyone- to use Suxs! The foot has changed & now it's the Computers telling us what to do, instead of -US- telling the computers what we want.

In theory, this makes Kubricks/Arthur C. Clarke's 2001 vision more realistic based on the time where in.

> Windows, and the 'default' installation of a lot of the current Linux
> distribs, install and run everthing and the kitchen sink.

And then the Internet comes into play & decides to download bloatware which your system don't support. Internet for DOS rocks, because unlike Windows which the Internet wants to add pain & misery to the OS itself, to DOS the Internet is a seperate application away, no added mess for this system. Bit sad to see Arachne has simmered down! Has Internet DOS given up? I thought it was great - I only had a 386 notebook running at 16Mhz, 61Mb Hard Disk & 4 Mb of memory (which I added to make it usable! ;-) You wouldn't do it on Windows with that Kind of Setup.

> It's just that with DOS, old versions of Linux, OS/2, you've got a lot
> more control over what loads, and when it loads, than with current
> versions Windows.

Yes and as I said, Computer Operating Systems Nowdays tend to add it's bloat which you don't want (there's no choice - except close it which is a pain), I'm still hacking into Window's INI Files to delete stuff which I don't want, it's insane. As least with DOS you knew what was what & could use it if you wanted it (not just have it install all by itself). Automated Computer Systems Suck.

> My preference in an OS is to extend it with drivers and apps, rather than
> something that has a massive footprint and loads all sorts of stuff
> behind my back.

Ditto.

> Sorry if anyone got the impression I was picking on DOS or CP/M'

Oh well, I just thought it was funny to be calling it a dumb system, when the proper person can come along & load specific systems depending on the type of use being involved.

CP/M User.
 
Actually, Im basicly interested in a lot of old stuff, especially old electronics. For some reason I like to collect and use stuff thats been rejected by society. Perhaps its my way of "rebelling". I like rare stuff thats cool, and old vintage computers are rare and cool. I have no interest in boring crap like jewelry.
 
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