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Any DEC RSTS/E experts out there ...

AK6DN

AK6DN

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Aug 23, 2010
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Location
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I have an issue with moving a RSTS/E v9.6 setup from under SIMH to the real hardware equivalent.

My setup is an 11/44 with full 4MB memory, DZ11, DL11, DEUNA, RX211, and an MSCP disk controller. All the devices are 'exactly' the same between SIMH and the real hardware, except SIMH models an MSCP UDA50, and my 11/44 has an MSCP Emulex UC18 dual SCSI disk/tape interface. I can run the exact same 2.11BSD setup on each, as well as RT-11 and XXDP. RSTS/E however does not behave the same. It dies miserably on the real hardware.

On the real 11/44, after I boot the RSTS/E image on DU1, it runs for a moment, and then immediately fails with the following message:

Code: 
Pack cluster size is not 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 or 64.
 PC=120324 PS=030344 OV=000006 M5=004000 M6=004200 SP=037716
 R0=000026 R1=000000 R2=000000 R3=000000 R4=000002 R5=040030

SP-> 020672 000026 000001 000040 000015 037154

Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error!

which repeats endlessly over and over as fast as it can. The emulated disk is an RA81 456MB sized image running on a SCSI disk.

On my SIMH setup, I see quite different behavior. It boots and enters time sharing normally, and SHOW DISK indicates a valid cluster size (16).

I'm looking thru the available v9.0 documentation I have, but not have yet found the above error message and how to decode it (I'm not sure what cluster size it think thinks the disk has, and/or how it computes that).

Any ideas/thoughts appreciated.
Don

Code: 
sim> boot rq1

RSTS V9.6-11 RSTS96 (DU1) INIT V9.6-11

Today's date? 11-FEB-99

Current time? 19:27

Start timesharing? <Yes> 

11-Feb-99 07:41 PM

9 devices disabled

Proceed with system startup? <YES>

 Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Installing monitor overlays
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Mounting disks
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Assigning logical names
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Starting error logging
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Setting system characteristics
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Setting terminal characteristics
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Defining system commands
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Setting printer characteristics
11-Feb-99 07:41 PM   Starting spoolers

*** From [1,2] on KB0: at 07:41 PM 11-Feb-99
** RSTS/E is on the air...

RSTS V9.6-11 11-Feb-99 07:41 PM
User: 1,2
Password:

Jobs detached under this account:
   Job  What  Size  State   Run-time   RTS
    1  ERRCPY 5K    SR           0.5  ...RSX
    3  PBS... 25K   SL           0.0  ...RSX
Job number to attach to?
Last logged in on 11-Feb-99, 07:41 PM detached.
2 other users are logged in under this account

$
$ show disk

Disk Structure:
Dsk  Open    Size      Free    Clu   Err Name      Level  Comments
DU1    18  891056  832432  93%  16     0 RSTS96     1.2   Pub, DLW
$
 
Last edited:
How are you going about trying to do this? Are you creating the disk image on SIMH, then "dd"ing that image to the real SCSI hard drive, and then configuring the UC18 to report the same disk size that was being used on SIMH?

The only thing that comes to mind is that the UC18 is reporting a slightly different disk size than expected. If you happen to have a 2.11BSD install tape that you can boot from on a SCSI tape drive attached to the UC18 you could try booting that and run the disk label program to display the geometry that it gets from the UC18 for SCSI disk. Then do the same on SIMH with the disk image and see if the reported geometry is the same.

There might be other ways to get the disk geometry from the MSCP controller. The 2.11BSD install tape disk label program is what I have used in the past.

Example: (If you've already been using 2.11BSD then you have seen this before).
Code: 
73Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500
: tms(0,1)
Boot: bootdev=06001 bootcsr=0174500
disklabel
Disk? ra(0,0)
'ra(0,0)' is unlabeled or the label is corrupt.
Proceed? [y/n] y
d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)? D
d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)? d

type: MSCP
disk: RD54
label: DEFAULT
flags:
bytes/sector: 512
sectors/track: 17
tracks/cylinder: 15
sectors/cylinder: 255
cylinders: 1220
rpm: 3600
drivedata: 0 0 0 0 0 

1 partitions:
#        size   offset    fstype   [fsize bsize]
  a: 311200 0  2.11BSD    1024 1024 	# (Cyl. 0 - 1220*)
 
gslick said:
How are you going about trying to do this? Are you creating the disk image on SIMH, then "dd"ing that image to the real SCSI hard drive, and then configuring the UC18 to report the same disk size that was being used on SIMH?

The only thing that comes to mind is that the UC18 is reporting a slightly different disk size than expected. If you happen to have a 2.11BSD install tape that you can boot from on a SCSI tape drive attached to the UC18 you could try booting that and run the disk label program to display the geometry that it gets from the UC18 for SCSI disk. Then do the same on SIMH with the disk image and see if the reported geometry is the same.

There might be other ways to get the disk geometry from the MSCP controller. The 2.11BSD install tape disk label program is what I have used in the past.
Click to expand...

I've used both a 2GB disk holding a 456MB created SIMH RA81 RSTS disk image, and now I'm using SCSItoSD with an SDcard in my UC18. Basically what you say is correct, I am dd'ing the image directly onto the SDcard in the correct partition.

I set the SDcard (8GB) as four 1.5GB partitions and placed the image(s) at the start of each partition. The Emulex UC18 MSCP controller config utility reports the size of each emulated disk as 1.5GB. Therein may lie the problem as you indicate. The controller does report the disk size to be the equivalent of 1.5GB in 512B blocks, much larger than the 456MB image, and (likely!) thus confusing the RSTS INIT code when it starts up, to assume a much larger cluster count.

Luckily with SCSItoSD I can set the exact size of each emulated partition (disk) which I could not (easily) do with my real Seagate 2.0GB SCSI disk drives.

I'm going to go rebuild the SD card now and I suspect after I shrink the RSTS physical partition (emulated drive) from 1.5GB to 456MB (like I built in SIMH) then it will be happy on the real hardware.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Don
 
Yes that was the problem. I copied a 456MB disk image into a 1800MB partition on the SCSItoSD SD card, and on boot the Emulex UC18 (correctly) reported the disk size as 1800MB, and then RSTS thru an INIT fit as the clustersize was wrong for this size drive.

So I reformatted the partition to hold the bootable RSTS image down to a hair larger than RA81 456MB in size (blocked to next 1MB boundary) and recopied the bootable image to the SD card. Reloaded SCSItoSD controller with new config, booted to UC18 monitor and loaded/stored the new config, and then booted the DU1 image on the 11/44. The (now successful) boot log follows.

Don

Code: 
(Console)
  Halted at 000014

>>>b du1

(Program)

RSTS V9.6-11 RSTS96 (DU1) INIT V9.6-11

Today's date? 12-FEB-99

Current time? 14:21

Start timesharing? <Yes> NO

Option: <Start> HA

  HARDWR suboption? LI

  Name  Address Vector  Comments
  TT0:   177560   060
  RU0:   172150  P320   UDA50A  Units: 0(RA81) 1(RA81) 2(RA81) 3(RA81)
  MU0:                  Disabled
  RX0:   177170   264   Units: 0(RX02) 1(RX02)
  KL0:   176500   300
  DZ0:   160100   310   Sub-lines: 8
  XE0:                  Disabled

  KW11L  177546   100
  KW11P  172540   104
  SR     177570
  DR     177570

  Hertz = 60.

  Other: FPU, CIS, 22-Bit, Data space, Cache, 11/44 CPU

  HARDWR suboption?

Option: <Start>

12-Feb-99 02:21 PM

9 devices disabled

Proceed with system startup? <YES>

 Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Installing monitor overlays
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Mounting disks
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Assigning logical names
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Starting error logging
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Setting system characteristics
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Setting terminal characteristics
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Defining system commands
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Setting printer characteristics
12-Feb-99 02:21 PM   Starting spoolers

*** From [1,2] on KB0: at 02:22 PM 12-Feb-99
** RSTS/E is on the air...

RSTS V9.6-11 12-Feb-99 02:22 PM
User: 1,2
Password:

Jobs detached under this account:
   Job  What  Size  State   Run-time   RTS
    1  ERRCPY 5K    SR          13.7  ...RSX
    3  PBS... 25K   SL           2.1  ...RSX
Job number to attach to?
Last logged in on 12-Feb-99, 02:22 PM detached.
2 other users are logged in under this account

$ systat

RSTS V9.6-11 RSTS/E V9.6 status at 12-Feb-99, 02:29 PM Up: 8:38

Job    Who    Where     What    Size    State    Run-Time  Pri/RB   RTS
 1     1,2    Det      ERRCPY   5/32K   SR           13.7    0/6    ...RSX
 2     1,2    KB0      SYSTAT  16/32K   RN Lck       58.5   -8/6    ...RSX
 3     1,2    Det      PBS...  25/32K   SL            2.1   -8/6    ...RSX

Busy Devices: None

Disk Structure:
Dsk  Open    Size      Free    Clu   Err Name      Level  Comments
DU1    18  892864  832432  93%  16     0 RSTS96     1.2   Pub, DLW

General  FIP                    Hung
Buffers  Buffers  Jobs/Jobmax   TTY's   Errors
  566        6       3/63         0        1

Run-Time Systems:
 Name   Typ   Dev    Size    Users  Comments
...RSX  TSK          0(32)K    3    Monitor, KBM
DCL     COM   DU1:   24(8)K    0    Temp, Addr:70, DF KBM
RT11    SAV   DU1:   4(28)K    0    Temp, Addr:107, KBM, CSZ, EMT:255
BASIC   BAC   DU1:  16(16)K    0    Non-Res, KBM, CSZ
TECO    TEC   DU1:  10(20)K    0    Non-Res, KBM

Resident Libraries:
 Name  Prot        Acct      Size  Users  Comments
CSPLIB < 42>  DU1:[  0,1  ]    8K    2    Temp, Addr:99
EDT    < 42>  DU1:[  0,11 ]   39K    0    Non-Res
RMSRES < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    4K    0    Non-Res, Addr:1911
RMSLBA < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    4K    0    Non-Res
RMSLBB < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    3K    0    Non-Res
RMSLBC < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    3K    0    Non-Res
RMSLBD < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    2K    0    Non-Res
RMSLBE < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    3K    0    Non-Res
RMSLBF < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]    4K    0    Non-Res
DAPRES < 42>  DU1:[  0,10 ]   10K    0    Non-Res, Addr:1901

Message Receivers:
Rcvrid   Job    Rib  Obj   Msgs/Max   Links/InMax/OutMax  Access
ERRLOG    1      0    1       0/40          0/0/0          Prv
QM$CMD    3      1    3       0/20          0/0/255        Prv
QM$SRV    3      2    4       0/30          0/0/255        Prv
QM$URP    3      3    5       0/10          0/0/255        Lcl
PR$03A    3     17   65       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
PR$03B    3     25   65       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
BA$03A    3     41   66       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
BA$03B    3     49   66       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
BA$03C    3     57   66       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
$
 
Nice that you solved that issue and got it working on real hardware. I have gone through the exercise of installing RSTS/E 10.1 from 1/2-inch and 8mm tape on 11/73 hardware a few times. That can take an hour or two. After the novelty of doing that wears off it's significantly quicker to install on a SIMH system and then move the resulting disk image to the real hardware.
 
gslick said:
Nice that you solved that issue and got it working on real hardware. I have gone through the exercise of installing RSTS/E 10.1 from 1/2-inch and 8mm tape on 11/73 hardware a few times. That can take an hour or two. After the novelty of doing that wears off it's significantly quicker to install on a SIMH system and then move the resulting disk image to the real hardware.
Click to expand...
I have installed RSTS and BSD onto my 11/84. One resides on a real 1G SCSI disk and the other on a SDcard using SCSItoSD. Both boot fine.
 
gslick said:
Nice that you solved that issue and got it working on real hardware. I have gone through the exercise of installing RSTS/E 10.1 from 1/2-inch and 8mm tape on 11/73 hardware a few times. That can take an hour or two. After the novelty of doing that wears off it's significantly quicker to install on a SIMH system and then move the resulting disk image to the real hardware.
Click to expand...

I originally built this RSTS from the 9.6 install tape, all under SIMH. SIMH 11/44 seems to run somewhere between 5x and 10x a real 11/44 (SIMH on my 3.7GHz XEON system).

The trick is that the SIMH config and the real hardware config have to be close to identical. XXDP, RT11, and even 2.11BSD seem pretty forgiving on actual disk media size, as long as it is big enough. RSTS it appears is a bit more picky, so best to generate a SIMH config knowing exactly what hardware you have, especially in terms of physical disk media.

That being said, I'll still most likely run RSTS under SIMH and checkpoint images over the the real 11/44 only when I feel like powering up the real hardware (like not winter or summer, as all the DEC stuff lives in an unheated/uncooled garage).

Don
 
Hi Don

I am experiencing the exact t same issue as you experienced above. Built a RSTS 9 install under SIMH and tried to get that on a real PDP 11/53 with an Emulex UC07 but I am getting the same Pack Cluster Size error. The only slight difference is my disk is a real 2Gb SCSI disk. I am DDing the disk image file to my /dev/sdc device - so the raw physical disk. This is what boots with the cluster size error so I know it is at least reading the boot block and part of the OS to get that far. What I am not clear on is how you are creating a specific size partition. I tried doing this in PARTED and then DDing to /dev/sdc1 - however the PDP will not boot this and complains there are no bootable drives attached. So I suppose what I could do with is a bit of clarity on how you are partitioning your SD card. I would hope I need to go through the same process to do this on a physical disk as well. Did you have to configure any specific FRD parameters within your Emulex controller?

Thanks in advance for any light you can throw on this!

Cheers

Sean
 
cakerack said:
Hi Don

I am experiencing the exact t same issue as you experienced above. Built a RSTS 9 install under SIMH and tried to get that on a real PDP 11/53 with an Emulex UC07 but I am getting the same Pack Cluster Size error. The only slight difference is my disk is a real 2Gb SCSI disk. I am DDing the disk image file to my /dev/sdc device - so the raw physical disk. This is what boots with the cluster size error so I know it is at least reading the boot block and part of the OS to get that far. What I am not clear on is how you are creating a specific size partition. I tried doing this in PARTED and then DDing to /dev/sdc1 - however the PDP will not boot this and complains there are no bootable drives attached. So I suppose what I could do with is a bit of clarity on how you are partitioning your SD card. I would hope I need to go through the same process to do this on a physical disk as well. Did you have to configure any specific FRD parameters within your Emulex controller?

Thanks in advance for any light you can throw on this!

Cheers

Sean
Click to expand...

The PDP-11 operating systems do NOT use PC partition formatting, so forget about using any tools like PARTED, etc to write an MBR and partition format. PDP-11 predated PC operating systems, and uses its own boot block and partition format. So you would 'dd' a full disk image as used in SIMH to a raw/full physical disk.

2.11BSD, RT-11, XXDP (maybe RX11M, not sure) don't care about the physical disk size per se, as long as the logical operating system file system fits on the drive. So you can put a 456MB (for example) SIMH 2.11BSD image onto a physical 2.1GB drive and the os runs fine; it just ignores the extra unused space.

RSTS/E is different (at least for v9.6 which I have used). When it starts up it (INIT) it checks the physical size of the disk vs the existing filesystem format and the cluster size must be within certain limits. For large physical drives the clustersize must be like 32B or 64B, or else INIT throws an error.

So the trick (as it were) for RSTS/E is to configure the simulated disk size you use under SIMH to be the same as what your ultimate target physical disk size is. So if you are using 1G SCSI disks on your UC07 you need to setup, and build, RSTS under SIMH using 1G disk size setup. That will then make RSTS happy when you move the image from SIMH to physical hardware.

Using SCSI2SD you can set the exact size of each emulated disk, so that is not a problem. Use the SCSI2SD card control program to setup your SD card with, for example, a 1G emulated drive (or even more should your SD card be larger). You can use the extra emulated SCSI drives for other operating systems.

With physical SCSI drives, I have not found a way to configure my UC17 controller to tell the DEC operating system the drive is a different physical size (ie, smaller) than it really is. It just reports the actual size of the drive using SCSI inquiry commands. SO if I use 2.1G SCSI drives I have to go back to SIMH and do a RSTS install from tape onto a 2.1G SIMH disk image, and then I can copy that to the physical drive and RSTS INIT boots cleanly.

Don
 
Last edited:
Hi DOn

Sorry for the delay in replying - my day job got in the way. Just a quick update on where I got to with this - I managed to construct a 2.1Gb RSTS image in SIMH and put it onto a RZ28 with dd then attached to the UC07 and voila - it boots! :) . The down side of course is that it's 2.1Gb and RSTS only supports 1Gb, also when I try to start timesharing it errors with ?Disk pack is not mounted - almost certainly to do with the physical disk size. Anyway I have an RZ25 on the way so I am pretty sure this will work once I get the image size down to something more realistic - will keep you posted.

Cheers for all your help

Sean
 
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