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Convert an Apple II into an Apple 1 using MCL65+

Why in the world would you want to downgrade and Apple II to an Apple I? It's not like there is a ton of software that can be run on it.
 
FWIW, if this is a thing someone really wanted Mike Willegal made a custom ROM board that includes the capability to "convert" an Apple II into an Apple I work-alike years ago. The main limitation of this solution is if you wrote software which directly pounded on the PIA to do terminal I/O instead of using the ROM routines it'd probably break, but apparently almost (if not) all actual existing Apple I software runs fine on it.

olePigeon said:
Sounds like this would be the ideal solution to write some new software for it. :)
Click to expand...

Why anyone would bother writing more software for a computer as lousy as the Apple I is a separate question, of course.
 
MicroCoreLabs said:
I think I am going to dial back sharing projects with this forum
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I was just pointing out that running Apple I software on an Apple II has been done before, albeit using a completely different technique. Obviously yours would technically cover more edge cases because, as I noted, the "Brain Board"'s method can't perfectly emulate the PIA terminal interface; on the flip side it's technically a lot more invasive (you're replacing the real CPU entirely with an emulator) and possibly overkill (is there actually any software for the Apple I that cares about this difference?). If you're going to have a discussion about "Apple II to Apple I conversion" is it not fair and on-topic to mention that there's more than one way to skin that cat and compare and contrast to other approaches?

(Also, the editorial statement about "if this is a thing someone really wanted" isn't a commentary on your work *at all*, it's an observation about the fact that there's almost no software for the Apple I, period, let alone any doesn't already have a better version for the Apple II. IE, I'm slagging the Apple I, as is my habit, not you. I think even a lot of people who've spent the considerable sum of money and the accompanying blood, sweat, and tears to build accurate Apple I replicas would be forced to admit under oath that it's probably the most overrated computer in all of retro computing.)

If all you're after is unadulterated ooh-ing and aah-ing then I guess there's really nothing to discuss?
 
Ill admit I was close to buying an apple 1 kit to build when i started looking into software for it... And there just isnt any.... So I thought to myself, what would be the point?
 
Eudimorphodon said:
FWIW, if this is a thing someone really wanted Mike Willegal made a custom ROM board that includes the capability to "convert" an Apple II into an Apple I work-alike years ago. The main limitation of this solution is if you wrote software which directly pounded on the PIA to do terminal I/O instead of using the ROM routines it'd probably break, but apparently almost (if not) all actual existing Apple I software runs fine on it.



Why anyone would bother writing more software for a computer as lousy as the Apple I is a separate question, of course.
Click to expand...
This is true. I still find OP's approach interesting though.

I updated the Brain Board recently to double the available ROM space, it lets you hold Integer and Applesoft basic in 2 separate banks each still containing the Wozaniam pack (Apple 1) code.

github.com

GitHub - Alex-Kw/Brain-Board-II: Updated "Brain Board" for Apple II, originally designed by Mike Willegal

Updated "Brain Board" for Apple II, originally designed by Mike Willegal - GitHub - Alex-Kw/Brain-Board-II: Updated "Brain Board" for Apple II, originally designed by Mike Willegal
github.com github.com
 
skate323k137 said:
I updated the Brain Board recently to double the available ROM space, it lets you hold Integer and Applesoft basic in 2 separate banks each still containing the Wozaniam pack (Apple 1) code.
Click to expand...

Cool. I've been thinking about rolling my own modded version that uses an SST flash ROM instead of an EEPROM (because I have a ton of them) to stick in an "apparently not working but I've never gotten around to fiddling with it" Apple II board that came with the Apple II plus clone I got years ago, but it's one of those projects that never ends up anywhere close to the top of the to-do list.

(The board is a piece of work; it came out of a Syscom II clone that had been used as a developer machine at Videx, the makers of the VidTerm 80 column cards. It's not the original clone board, that was lost to history, but a Rev 4-ish actual Apple board that someone decided to *solder* to the Syscom II's original power supply because the connectors didn't match. The Syscom-II itself now has a *newer* //plus board and a standard Apple power supply, so all that's left of the clone is the keyboard and the case. I was told the board "didn't work right" and the ROM chips were harvested to plug into the replacement board, but it came along with the transaction.

The "Brain Board" supposedly can run a machine even if the original ROMs are absent so I've been thinking it might be fun to use one to resurrect that mutant board and construct an ad-hoc machine along the lines of what someone might have built in 1977 if they'd traded in their Apple I for an Apple II motherboard *alone*, which was a thing Apple actually offered for a few months.)

And again, to be clear (and I've said this in other threads), the OP's "full brain transplant" approach definitely allows you to do some interesting things.
 
Eudimorphodon said:
The "Brain Board" supposedly can run a machine even if the original ROMs are absent so I've been thinking it might be fun to use one to resurrect that mutant board and construct an ad-hoc machine along the lines of what someone might have built in 1977 if they'd traded in their Apple I for an Apple II motherboard *alone*, which was a thing Apple actually offered for a few months.)
Click to expand...
If you want to try it I'm happy to send you a normal / original brain board for next to nothing, or an updated one at a low cost. It would be cool to see. I also have a bunch of pcbs unpopulated of both designs fwiw, more than I'll likely ever need. 😅
 
skate323k137 said:
If you want to try it I'm happy to send you a normal / original brain board for next to nothing, or an updated one at a low cost. It would be cool to see. I also have a bunch of pcbs unpopulated of both designs fwiw, more than I'll likely ever need. 😅
Click to expand...

I guess just having a finished one around would cut down on inertia-based excuses. ;)

Maybe next time I’m itching to torture something on the work bench I should pull it off the shelf and see how much magic smoke is missing.
 
MicroCoreLabs said:
I think I am going to dial back sharing projects with this forum
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PLEASE DON'T STOP SHARING HERE!

I've had limited time to be active on this forum lately, but I for one greatly appreciate your projects. I haven't posted (m)any comments about your projects before, but I'm taking the time to do so now. I think your projects are great because they allow for existing computers to be:
1) repaired when parts might no longer be available
2) upgraded when upgrades were never produced or beyond what was produced - e.g. your accelerated 8088
3) altered to make new variants, giving a greater degree of flexibility in 1 box - e.g. your IBM 68K PC and this project
4) understood in greater depth with the learning-by-tinkering fun part of vintage computers as a hobby.
There are, no doubt, other reasons I like your projects that would come to me with a little more thought, but I think the above reasons are good enough.

While the question of practicality is always a strange one to ask on this forum, it does have validity if one's aim is to use the computer for it's original purpose: to solve real world problems or to get work done. But, there is a lot more to vintage computing than just this. While an Apple I may not be "worth using/building" today for a practical purpose, it is worth studying for educational and historical reasons.

This project allows people who have an Apple II to try out an Apple I without having to build or buy one. If I understand it correctly, you can even "downgrade" the computer without having to open the case once the board is installed. Therefore, you should be able to "upgrade" it back to an Apple II without having to make any physical changes.

This type of project should be shared on this forum so that those new to the forum, and possibly vintage computing in general, can see that there are cheaper/easier alternatives to gaining access to other computers than buying the original equipment.

Having your projects shared on this forum helps make all of vintage computing accessible in one place.
 
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