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Experiences with the Catweasel

cwtool reading Apple Mac / Apple II disks

cwtool reading Apple Mac / Apple II disks

I was able to get cwtool to read Apple 3.5" GCR encoded disks.

I started with 800k Macintosh diskettes. The problem I was seeing was that the first set of tracks (0-31 using cwtool's track numbering, which is different than cylinder #) contained a number of errors. So my next step was to try a real Mac.

I was able to put the diskettes into a real Mac Plus, run an Apple program named Disk Copy (v.4.2) and duplicate the disks successfully. DiskCopy appears to contain some good error checking (it was calculating a checksum on the disk image it read, then verified the copy after writing), so I'm confident the disks are exact copies. I was then able to successfully read the copies with cwtool without any errors whatsoever (mac_dd_800_524)!

I'm not sure what the problem is with the originals... I suspect it might be something related to the constant linear velocity drive speed of the Mac v. constant angular velocity of the PC.

Next, I tried this technique with a few 3.5" 800K Apple II diskettes (3.5" Apple II disks - yikes!). Those diskettes appear to be the same format as a Mac disk, but at the 800k size (double sided, double density) it uses a volume id of 0x24 instead of 0x22. With this setting, it worked. Again, I still had to use the Mac's DiskCopy to create new copies for the Catweasel/cwtool. cwtool reported some errors on the originals, but the Mac could read them just fine.

I actually had one 400k 3.5" Apple II disk. This was the same as the Mac 400k disk - volume id 0x22. In the cwtool resource file, I just set the tracks to x+1 on the track settings, then incremented by 2 (e.g., 1 32 2 is the first one). No problems.
 
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Catweasel rocks!

Catweasel rocks!

Just a real quick msg. I've been up all night. Its 5am.

I have my Catweasel installed and working great so far!.

I am totally wrapped.

I have read C64 and Amiga Disks and run them on my PC using Emulators like VICE and WinUAE.

I also had some Apple iie disks here but most are very badly damaged. So I don't have a Dos 3.3 disk to test with.

But the game disks seemed to read fine and I found a nice Apple IIe emulator to test with. All I need now is a Dos 3.3 disk to boot with and I can test these also.

I'm really looking forward to the updated drivers so I can Write Apple IIe format as well. I'll be able to get my old DSE Cat purring again! :)

Oh, and the speed this thing samples the disks at is amazing. So quick!.

More soon!

.-.-.
 
TNX but I found a file.

TNX but I found a file.

Thanks for the offer. I did manage to find a place to download the images.

Now I just have to wait for a driver update for Catweasel and I can make my own Apple IIe disks. :)

I wonder why everything else was supported for Read / write, but not Apple IIe ??

Must have been a harder format or something?

.-.-.
 
But the game disks seemed to read fine and I found a nice Apple IIe emulator to test with. All I need now is a Dos 3.3 disk to boot with and I can test these also.
Click to expand...

don't bother doing that right now - the images are full of zeros due to a bug :/ this will be fixed in the next update like said before :)

I wonder why everything else was supported for Read / write, but not Apple IIe ??
Must have been a harder format or something?
Click to expand...

It's quite a weird format which i am not familiar with, and i don't have any apple machines to test written disks either. however, i will have a look at implementing write support after the next update.
 
RE; Flip Disks.

RE; Flip Disks.

BG101 said:
Have you been able to read anything from Side B of double-sided disks? If so which ones?
BG
Click to expand...

If you mean Amiga disks as in true double sided. Yes.

If you mean Flipped disks, No. Not yet. I tried for the fun of it and I was surprised to see the disk does spin up and the head makes the stepping sounds. But it does sound a lot rougher then the normal side when stepping. And also does come up NA (Fail) for the format guess.

I personally never owned any `Flip' / `Doubled' / `Notched' Disks. I considered it a bad move in the day. Spinning the disks backwards etc. Disks were cheap enough I was prepared to pay a little extra and considered it a good investment for the future. Besides working for a CBM outlet I got all my blanks at cost anyhow! ;)

Little did I know how well it would pay off. Some 2+ decades later I am happy to say I still have a keen interest in my commodores and now thanks to the fine efforts of the Catweasel developers I am able to read and archive my beloved disks yet again in modern equipment.

Anyhow the few Flip disks I have here are hand me down's from people and are very questionable as to their past histories. For many the first side doesn't even read. But in some cases I am sure it's because people have played, trying to re-use / format / write to them etc.

The Catweasel documentation explains that the second side will not read and that the disk should not even spin up (Although mine did) due to the lack of sensor for the index hole. There is a mod to get around this, but I looked at it quickly and decided it was not for me.

Besides now that I am a little more familiar with the processes I do have some new goals as far as obtaining my idea of ideal drives for this project.

.-.-.
 
RE: Catweasel Apple IIe format and others

RE: Catweasel Apple IIe format and others

gpz said:
don't bother doing that right now - the images are full of zeros due to a bug :/ this will be fixed in the next update like said before :)

It's quite a weird format which i am not familiar with, and i don't have any apple machines to test written disks either. however, i will have a look at implementing write support after the next update.
Click to expand...

OK, Yea I did read that but after making the C64 (1541) and Amiga (880K 3.5) formats work I was just so keen to try something else!. :)

And I'm so keen to test this apple clone I have here (DSE Cat). I've had it for years and have never been able to test whether the drive still reads. It's actually a very rare machine as it was only released in a few places in the world under a few different brand names.

Out of interest when I was searching for a Apple IIe Dos image I tried a few IRC Apple IIe channels and when I mentioned what I was doing with the Catweasel there was a lot of interest and questions from the Apple people. I think once the R/W is available for Apple IIe you will have quiet a few potential buyers from Apple addicts. :)

I was very surprised to see that the Apple IIe emulation and preservation scene is even bigger than the Commodore one!.

There is even Online Java based emulators with full software archives online where you can run all the old games etc.

Big potential market there for Catweasel I would think.

Anyhow. If you need any testing for Apple IIe format, yell out I'd be happy to help.

.-.-.
 
Catweasel: What drives should I look for?

Catweasel: What drives should I look for?

OK. Now that I'm well and truly hooked, I'm looking at a action plan of what drive mech's I should be on the look out for.

If possible I'd like to get all 3 formats (3.5", 5.25", & 8").

I realise this could take some time.

So what I'm looking for now is advice on what mechanisms I should be searching for based on which are the Best types to get and are most likely to still be available.

My view is that all disk drives will become harder and harder to get as specially in good condition as time goes on. So now is the time to procure a few to keep me going.

The 3.5" should be the easiest. (Teac is recomended but not OEM Teac).

The 5.25" while I initially thought would be easy I now wonder. I didn't know / realise that there was a higher resolution drive mech that steps at 100 TPI (the old 8250 / 1001 CBM drives mech's). I initially just assumed that the last of the PC 1.2MB HD drives would be the best. It's interesting to know that sometimes older is better! :)

So for 5.25" I'd be keen to know what the most modern and best suited 100tpi drives are that I have the best chance of procuring? Also do these still have the standard connector on the back? I have a lot of 8250 formated disks here from my BBS days that I would like to archive.

Now for 8", this will definatly be the hardest. I will be lucky to get even 1 or 2 of these drive mech's over time I would presume. Any leads or info here appreciated.

Because Catweasel only handles 2 drives at a time. (Like all controllers) and also because the 8" drive will require a larger external case, 24Volt powersupply, and fdadap adapter I plan on running a port on the back of the machine for externally connected drives. Perhaps with the ability to loop a cable back into the system for the internal drives.

.-.-.
 
So what I'm looking for now is advice on what mechanisms I should be searching for based on which are the Best types to get and are most likely to still be available.
Click to expand...

the answer is: TEAC :) However, for floppy drives you can almost generally say that older=better. this seems to be especially true for 3.5" drives (some brand new drives work for reading a few disks and then fail - doh). however, since you can get atleast the common drives (3.5" and 5.25" that is) for almost no money, it's always a good idea to pick up a few of them and then try which works best for you - keep in mind that a lot of factors come into play, how the drive was stored and used over the years etc.

So for 5.25" I'd be keen to know what the most modern and best suited 100tpi drives are that I have the best chance of procuring? Also do these still have the standard connector on the back? I have a lot of 8250 formated disks here from my BBS days that I would like to archive.
Click to expand...

unfortunately, 100tpi drives are extremely rare and hard to get. look at this document: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/tandon_commodore_stein.txt (yay, should add that info to the documentation =))
 
THe Holey Grail of Floppy Drives.

THe Holey Grail of Floppy Drives.

Yep, I actually found that document. Interesting reading.

It looks like 100 tpi 5.25" drives could be as hard if not harder to find then 8" drives.

Some interesting points from that document.

The most common source of mech's still around in 2007 were from the CBM era. 1001's and 8250's.

Two sad points. People look to find these mech's to gut for other retro gear indirectly threatening an already scarce source of commodore parts.

Both good and bad is that these CBM drive mechs are missing necessary components and interfacing as CBM went their own path with their controller smarts.

This makes them less of a target for non CBM enthusiasts but also makes them useless for Catweasel.

I do have one 8250LP mech here as I used to own an 8250LP that went faulty. Unfortunately this mech has a dead head. But I will have a closer look to see what is possibly missing compared to a 96tpi unit.

Anyhow this is all quiet interesting. Regardless of the outcome. I should at the very least be able to concentrate on finding and archiving a lot of early software in many formats that can be read from the 96tpi 5.25" and 3.5" drives that are still relatively easy to obtain.

Who know's maybe in time I will come across the holy grail of 5.25" and 8" drive mech's. But until then there is still plenty of other important work that can be done via the magic of Catweasel ;)

.-.-.
 
I have a couple of 8250LP mechs too, and could probably find more if desired. Those however may all be more or less broken and apparently (?) won't work on a Shugart bus without some adapter interface if I understand correctly.

Anyone interested in toying with one could PM me and we'll work out the details. Mainly I would only ask for shipping for the loose, possibly broken mechanisms.
 
disk drives for catweasel

disk drives for catweasel

I run my catweasel Mk4 on a dual boot Pentium III (1.4 GHz, 768MB) under ubuntu and WinXP.

The machine has a 3.5" high density drive and a 5.25" DSDD disk drive.

The 3.5" drive is a common drive and I haven't had any trouble with it. (maybe a Mitsumi?). It works with all the popular formats.

For the 5.25" drive, I chose a DSDD (40 track) drive over the 1.2MB HD (80 track) because of the differences in read/write head size. The only machine that used the 5.25" HD format was the PC-AT and all of the clones. My diverse collection of 8-bit machines and my XT, PCjr all use some variant of a 40 track drive.

The specific drive I chose was the half height IBM 360K drive used in late model XT's (I'm not sure of the OEM manufacturer). What I really look for - especially on a 5.25" DSDD drive - is a direct-drive spindle. I avoid the belt driven mechanisms because direct drive should be more accurate and the old belts on these drives can stretch or break, throwing the drive off.
 
Interesting.

Interesting.

HI, Good to see another user.

It's interesting that you have chosen a 40 TPI drive.

I tried writing a C64 format disk using my 96tpi drive mech and it seemed to do it OK. I haven't had a chance to actually try it in the 1541 drive yet though.

However I definately can not read a single thing from my 8250 disks unfortunately. But I hope to be able to read these in the future once I get some 8250 Mechs and try and build a couple of good drives out of some old dead ones and other parts. But this will be a more long term project, much like my hopes of procuring some 8" mechs.

My System is an AMD Athlon AM2 4000+ Dual Core with XP Home and Sabayon (Gentoo) Linux.

I haven't bothered doing anything yet with the Catweasel on the Linux side as the windows side has done every thing I need so far except Apple IIe (Which will soon be added).

.-.-.
 
Hi All,
I see there is quite a bit of interest in the Catweasel. There is a Yahoo! Group for the Catweasel for regular users and developers.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/catweasel/

The group is actually quite old with the original messages dating back 10 years. However, it had fallen into disrepair and taken over by spammers in recent years. I contacted the original group owner and he has reclaimed the group. All the spammers and offensive posts have been removed.

If you are interested in Catweasel and would like to discuss with your peers please give the original Catweasel mailing list a try. Hopefully we can restore this mailing list to something useful and helpful for the Catweasel community.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch
 
Hi All,

As a recent CW MK4 owner, I'm a new member in this group, as well as the Yahoo group referred by lynchaj.

I have a question for MattCarp: It seems you kind of fluently speak cwtoolrc config file.:)
Besides cwtool code itself, I can't find any documentation on the cwtoolrc settings.
Did you have to read it all to understand cwtoolrc inner workings?
Or do you have any documentation /application notes available somewhere?

I'm currently making images of Mac 800KB 3.5" DD disks and Apple 5.25" 140KB disks.

When reading Mac 800KB DD formatted by a real Mac, I frequently get read errors starting from around hardware track 60 to hardware track 80. I use the mac_dd_800 and mac_dd_800_524, but I can't see any difference.
Did you tweak your own mac_dd_800_xxx preset? Did you have to test zillions of 3.5" floppy drives in quest of the Perfect One? (Of course, I avoided using the blacklisted floppy drives described in the CW MK4 manual).

What is the purpose of the third argument in 'track_range' directive (I see that values can be 1,2,4)?

When writing a Mac 800KB image to a 3.5" floppy disk, cwtool produces no errors. However, reading them back shows much more errors than reading a 3.5" DD disk formatted by a real mac. Did you encounter the same problem?

As for reading Apple 2 5.25 disks, I use a Teac FD55BR drive.
I have no problem reading the disks (unless they are badly damaged), and the resulting size is 143,360 bytes.
However, I can't make them start with AppleWin, almost all of them throw me to the System Monitor with the nice "*" prompt :( . Do you have any idea why it could happen?

To sum up: What are the tweaking guidelines for cwtool to better read / write Apple2 5.25 disks and Mac 800KB disks?

Thanks for any reply!
 
cwtool reading Apple Mac / Apple II disks

cwtool reading Apple Mac / Apple II disks

[for reference, my Catweasel is in a Pentium III machine, using Ubuntu 7.10, with an IBM 5.25" 360KB half height drive, and a relatively generic 3.5" 1.4MB drive]

I was able to get more info on cwtoolrc by corresponding with the tool's author. I've attached the thread of the e-mails for your reference. Karsten was extremely helpful, but I did have the impression that he's moved on to other things. Let me share what I learned:

cwtoolrc is not documented. It is almost straightforward, but I recall that some of the constructs are confusing. You could decipher it from the source code, however, I was able to get down some notes through the e-mails. I really need to do the community a favor and collect/compose them into some documentation.

Anyway, here is the revised Apple II 5.25" definition that worked in creating images:

Code: 
disk "mac_5.25_300"
	{
	info "Apple, same as mac_5.25 but for 300 RPM drives"
	clock 14
	track_range 2 134 4
		{
		format "fill"
		optional yes
		write fill_length 16384
		}
	format "gcr_apple"
	sectors 16
	read
		{
		timeout 240
		postcomp yes
		}
	write
		{
		timeout 400
		precomp
			{
			+0x0000 +0x0100 +0x0100
			-0x0100 +0x0000 +0x0000
			-0x0100 +0x0000 +0x0000
			}
		fill_length1 23
		fill_length2 7
		}
	bounds
		{
		0x0800 0x1b00 0x2900
		0x2a00 0x3600 0x4400
		0x4500 0x5200 0x6000
		}
	track_range 0 136 4 { }
	}

So, that worked for me. The only Apple II floppies I couldn't read were a few Activision games that likely had copy protection.

I haven't tried any of my images in AppleWin, but I've written out floppies from my Catweasel and was successful in a real Apple //c. I'd be happy to send some floppies your way for testing. The problem you encounter could be with AppleWin (like a file format problem)?


As far as the Mac goes, I ran into a very similar kind of problem you encountered. However, my problem was with cwtool track numbers 0-31.

Karsten took a quick look at it and couldn't see a problem, and then we didn't spend the time on it to isolate and fix it. However, I did find a workaround: I copied the disk in a real Mac (using Apple's DiskCopy 4.2) and then was able to read that copy with the Catweasel using either of the mac_dd_800 or mac_dd_800_524 definitions.

I'm not sure why that would have worked. Early Mac 3.5" disk drives are a constant linear velocity drive, which means that the motor speed varies with the track the head is positioned on (i.e., slower rotation when on the outer tracks). The Mac 800K disk has 5 groups of tracks, called zones: as the speed slows down on the longer, outer tracks, there's room for more sectors. Our problems seem to be aligned with the zones. My problem was with the first zone (cwtool tracks 0-31) and yours seems to be with the last zone (cwtool tracks ~128-159).

cwtool should already compensate for using a CLV disk in a constant angular velocity drive. However, given the problem, I'm thinking that maybe the variation of the rotational speed between the recorded disk, the drive, and the Catweasel, is just on the margin, and therefore doesn't compensate enough. Maybe when I created the copy, it reduced the error caused by the recorded disk?

I'd love to crack this problem...
 

Attachments

  • cwtool Apple disk correspondence.doc.zip
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Open-src alternative using USB

Open-src alternative using USB

Hiya,
If you're interested in an open-source, USB-based alternative to Catweasel that you can make at home, it's getting to 'beta' level.

It has advantages over catweasel in terms of cost, performance and open-source-ness.
Mind you, it's my 'baby' so I would say that. ;-)

long thread here..
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=40959

skip to the last page for current status (i.e. it works) if you're interested.
Cheers,
Rich
 
It has advantages over catweasel in terms of cost, performance and open-source-ness.
Click to expand...

performance? i have my doubts, could you elaborate on that ?
 
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