Hard Drive in a 5150 - Cheating?

[Great Hierophant]

The 5150, as sold by IBM, came in many varieties, but none of those varieties included a Hard Disk (Fixed Disk) drive. The official reason was that the power supply inside the PC was not powerful enough to support running a hard disk drive. In those days of full-height 5.25" floppy and hard drives, that can be understood.

It should come to no surprise that a user can use any mass storage device inside a PC if the power requirements of the drive and interface are within the power supply's limits. Newer, lower power drives may work with the 63.5W of the PC's power supply. More common was to upgrade the power supply to a higher rated unit, such as the one in the IBM PC/XT (130W, which is what I am using.)

IBM did support using hard drives in a 5150, through their 5161 Expansion Unit. For most users, this was a huge investment and by the time it became affordable, more powerful computers with hard drives were on the market for the same amount of money. Most users of the 5150 back in the day probably never used a hard disk.

A stock 5150 probably has no room for a hard disk drive, filled with floppy disk drives, except by using a hard card. I do not know whether it ever came with DOS greater than 2.1, which only supports disk drives up to 16MB. As a friend of mine said when I presented to him my PC with an XT hard disk drive and power supply, "Its really an XT."

 

[Unknown_K]

Well its not stock. Some people like stock and some people like upgrading the hell out of units. I guess it depends on what you have and what you need it to do.

I have a bunch of PS/2 systems that have CPU upgrades, I am fine with them. Would I bother to put a 286 chip in an 8088 system, probably not (might as well use a real 286).

I do think non standard or newer parts will probably lower the value of the machine somewhere down the line if the hobby sticks around, if you care about that at all.

 

[frozenfire75i]

I my-self would have a small problem with that, as I am a totally 100% pure IBM and stock collector. I would call it cheating, however I guess it would be ok given it's an XT PSU ST-412 and XT HDD card. Then I would say it's ok, since the PC and XT are so close! Basicly same system with a few extra slots and power.

 

[Chuck(G)]

IBM wasn't the only source for hard drives for the 5150. We used a third-party expansion chassis on ours (looked just like IBM's and worked just like it). But other hard drive boxes were made by many firms, even Ampex. At home I used an 8" Shugart drive with a WD1001 controller hooked to a very simple ISA card that I put together in an afternoon.

You may be strictly IBM, but of the population of hard drives on 5150s, I'll venture that most were third-party.

 

[per]

I would say that adding a HDD to a rev.A 5150 PC is cheating, however, Rev.B's are more like the XT's and I don't take it too serious with them.

I got 4 IBM cards in my system (5160 PC/XT: 64/256Kb RAM card, FDD card, Async. card, Printer/LPT2 card) but 3 non-IBM cards (ATI GS, SC Pro 2 CT1600, WD8003W Ethernet card), however, I got 2 IBM cards I don't use by the time (the MDA card that came with the system, and a CGA card). As of my view, A PC doesn't loose it's value if it's used with non-stock cards, as long as the original IBM cards are kept, so the owner could restore it to stock condition at any time.

Too bad IBM didn't made any MGA cards. I'm kinda forced to use my ATI GS if I want to play MS Flight Simulator.

I my-self would have a small problem with that, as I am a totally 100% pure IBM and stock collector. I would call it cheating, however I guess it would be ok given it's an XT PSU ST-412 and XT HDD card. Then I would say it's ok, since the PC and XT are so close! Basicly same system with a few extra slots and power.

You forgot that if you try to get input from the casette port on the XT, you'll actully get what's cuttently running through the PC speaker. I don't know why IBM wiered the speaker signal to pin 13 of the 8255A-5 in the XT's (where Cassette data in sould be on the PC), and I really doublt that there are programs using this feautre at all!

I don't know if XT clones or AT clones did this.

*Edit*
I took a look on the AT schematics, and I figured that the type 1 AT do not send data from the speaker into the system. Hence, the actual Trueblue IBM 5160 PC/XT is problably the only design that's able to "listen" to the PC-speaker.

 

[Chuckster_in_Jax]

In my opinion, the IBM 5160 was one of the most influential machines in the computer revolution. Although the 5150 was considered their first, it was overshadowed by the larger memory, higher capacity floppies and (optional)hard drive the 5160 came with. It was also on this model that a whole industry of third party add-ons sprung up. Back then, computers were so expensive, people would rather upgrade their existing machine than spend thousands of dollars for a new one.
I have seen a lot of comments from collectors that have a negative opinion of machines that have been upgraded. Every computer I purchased in the 80's, I found myself upgrading with higher capacity floppies, hard drives and memory. It was almost a necessity in order to keep up with the newer software that was coming out(just like it is today).

I currently have 3 IBM 5160's that I purchased used within the last 6 years.
I have upgraded all of them. They have:

3.5" 1.44MB Floppy
5.25" 1.2MB Floppy
ATI Video cards with both 9-pin CGA/EGA and 15-pin VGA

Two of them have IDE drives in them.
One has an MFM hard drive.
One has a 286 processor upgrade card.

If any of these machines were listed on eBay along side a stock 5160, which do you think would sell for the higher price?

I kept the original drives and cards in case I wanted to put them back to their original configuration.

 

[frozenfire75i]

Yes that maybe ture about the upgrades and stuff back then, but now thay are parts of histroy and need to be saved and restored in there factroy state, If you want a system with those spec's go collect a no-name clone, don't destroy an stock PC or XT...

Anyone with any comman sence knows a stock PC would sell for much more!

In my opinion, the IBM 5160 was one of the most influential machines in the computer revolution. Although the 5150 was considered their first, it was overshadowed by the larger memory, higher capacity floppies and (optional)hard drive the 5160 came with. It was also on this model that a whole industry of third party add-ons sprung up. Back then, computers were so expensive, people would rather upgrade their existing machine than spend thousands of dollars for a new one.
I have seen a lot of comments from collectors that have a negative opinion of machines that have been upgraded. Every computer I purchased in the 80's, I found myself upgrading with higher capacity floppies, hard drives and memory. It was almost a necessity in order to keep up with the newer software that was coming out(just like it is today).

I currently have 3 IBM 5160's that I purchased used within the last 6 years.
I have upgraded all of them. They have:

3.5" 1.44MB Floppy
5.25" 1.2MB Floppy
ATI Video cards with both 9-pin CGA/EGA and 15-pin VGA

Two of them have IDE drives in them.
One has an MFM hard drive.
One has a 286 processor upgrade card.

If any of these machines were listed on eBay along side a stock 5160, which do you think would sell for the higher price?

I kept the original drives and cards in case I wanted to put them back to their original configuration.

 

[tezza]

I have seen a lot of comments from collectors that have a negative opinion of machines that have been upgraded.

From a purists point of view, just what a "stock" 5150 or 5160 represents is problematic. When purchasing the machine, buyers could specifiy the specs and add-ons they wanted. The choice varied depending just what year the machine was bought. For example there was a lot more available in 1984 than in 1981. What is the vanilla model then?

However, that notwithstanding, there are boundaries. If you are someone like me who has an interest in history, and wants to eventually exibit my machines I would be looking for a "typical" configuration.

I would consider a 5150 with a hard drive and larger power supply to be atypical of a 5150, and therefore not qualify.

Tez

 

[frozenfire75i]

I have run in to 100's of 5150's the most comman seems to be two floppys, 256K base ram, and 3rd party card such as AST or something like that!

From a purists point of view, just what a "stock" 5150 or 5160 represents is problematic. When purchasing the machine, buyers could specifiy the specs and add-ons they wanted. The choice varied depending just what year the machine was bought. For example there was a lot more available in 1984 than in 1981. What is the vanilla model then?

However, that notwithstanding, there are boundaries. If you are someone like me who has an interest in history, and wants to eventually exibit my machines I would be looking for a "typical" configuration.

I would consider a 5150 with a hard drive and larger power supply to be atypical of a 5150, and therefore not qualify.

Tez

 

[per]

My 5160's configuration when I got it:

PC/XT power supply
8088, no 8087
256Kb Base RAM.
2 Full heigh FDD's, 360Kb.
IBM FDD Adapter
IBM MDA

It seems strange that my XT was configured as a stock 5150 PC, however, i haven't had any problems with it.

 

[frozenfire75i]

I have seen many XT's like that, 2nd most common is two HH floppys

My 5160's configuration when I got it:

PC/XT power supply
8088, no 8087
256Kb Base RAM.
2 Full heigh FDD's, 360Kb.
IBM FDD Adapter
IBM MDA

It seems strange that my XT was configured as a stock 5150 PC, however, i haven't had any problems with it.

 

[per]

I have seen many XT's like that, 2nd most common is two HH floppys

I guess that the ones with half height drives problably have later revision XT motherobards. Mine, and problably the ones you have seen with full height FDD's, are early revision XT motherboards.

BTW;

Do you think it would be bad if I soldrerd in jumpers in all the En fields on my XT Motherboard?

 

[tezza]

I have run in to 100's of 5150's the most comman seems to be two floppys, 256K base ram, and 3rd party card such as AST or something like that!

Yes, certainly in New Zealand when the 5150s started to appear the most common config was 2x360 kb floppies, 256k RAM and a monochrome adaptor and printer card.

Tez

 

[frozenfire75i]

Yes don't change a stock XT... I am really big about stock and factroy ect!

Ya your right the later XT's the ones made south of the boarder were all HH!

I guess that the ones with half height drives problably have later revision XT motherobards. Mine, and problably the ones you have seen with full height FDD's, are early revision XT motherboards.

BTW;

Do you think it would be bad if I soldrerd in jumpers in all the En fields on my XT Motherboard?

 

[per]

Yes don't change a stock XT... I am really big about stock and factroy ect!

Ya your right the later XT's the ones made south of the boarder were all HH!

I was not thinking of changing it. It is just the empty fields on the MoBo sating "E5" for an example. According to the schematics, changing "E5" would allow you to take direct software controll of the keyboard port (bit 2 of I/O port 0x61h).

 

[mbbrutman]

I don't understand the reason for the debate ...

If you are a collector, then you want it original. You want the boxes, the original diskettes, the binders, etc. Not a screw should be turned out of place.

If you are a user you probably upgraded your machine. Upgrades made the machine more useful. People bought new computers to use them, not collect them.

If you are still tinkering around today, then you probably don't have a stock machine. Otherwise, you could just be a collector. You might as well collect stamps or coins if you don't intend to use what you collect.

Every classic computer mailing list/forum seems to discuss this topic several times a year and come to the same conclusion - it depends on the individual. And so, here we are again ...

 

[frozenfire75i]

I am both, A Collector that's a user, a light user once a month or so!

I don't understand the reason for the debate ...

If you are a collector, then you want it original. You want the boxes, the original diskettes, the binders, etc. Not a screw should be turned out of place.

If you are a user you probably upgraded your machine. Upgrades made the machine more useful. People bought new computers to use them, not collect them.

If you are still tinkering around today, then you probably don't have a stock machine. Otherwise, you could just be a collector. You might as well collect stamps or coins if you don't intend to use what you collect.

Every classic computer mailing list/forum seems to discuss this topic several times a year and come to the same conclusion - it depends on the individual. And so, here we are again ...

 

[Terry Yager]

I don't understand the reason for the debate ...

But, we love religious arguments. (Well, I do anyways)

--T

 

[Chuckster_in_Jax]

If you are still tinkering around today, then you probably don't have a stock machine. Otherwise, you could just be a collector. You might as well collect stamps or coins if you don't intend to use what you collect.

Every classic computer mailing list/forum seems to discuss this topic several times a year and come to the same conclusion - it depends on the individual. And so, here we are again ...

My reason for updating the floppies is that it is a total pain in the arse to try to get programs such as DBase or Lotus 123 loaded onto a hard drive with only 360k floppies. Most of the software I find is not available on anything less than 1.2MB floppies.
2 of my XT's came with dead 10MB Seagate HDD's. Because I can't find a working 10MB drive, my second choice for replacement would be something like a 20 MB ST-225. MFM drives have been out of production for many years now and the ones out there are failing. People are starting to look for alternatives to keep their machines running. I'm sure we have all seen the ongoing project to develop an 8-bit IDE card and there seems to be a lot of interest in it. Can you see the day coming that you would put an IDE drive in your machine because there are no other alternatives?

As I stated in the last sentence of my 1st post, I still have all of the original boards that came with the computers. I can restore them to their original configuration. I get the impression that some collectors think I took a hacksaw to the units and butchered them. Not so.

The computers in my collection are not set up to seriously use spreadsheets or databases or any software. Exceptions would be for running OS/2 on some of my IBM PS/2's. My main concern is to keep them in good working order with software that people would have used on them back in the day.

 

[per]

If you are a collector, then you want it original. You want the boxes, the original diskettes, the binders, etc. Not a screw should be turned out of place.

If you are a user you probably upgraded your machine. Upgrades made the machine more useful. People bought new computers to use them, not collect them.

I'm a mix. I'm not as much as a collector that I want the boxes, but I did pay some bucks for the original PC-DOS 2.1 manual.

I do allow upgrades to my system, as long as I'm able to restore it to default (hence, I don't throw out the cards I'm not using), however, I'm pretty unsure if it's wise to solder in the missing jumper headers on my CGA/MDA/XT-MoBo board.

IBM didn't make soundblasters