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How can I use a 5.25 floppy on a modern computer? I need urgent help.

Yes, I will probably upload the video today, I will be home after about 8 hours. I took off the upper case, so you can see how the head behaves.
When I insert the floppy and try to open it, the head falls down on it and sometimes that's all and sometimes it makes two short moves - one forth and one back and it stops and it goes up when the light turns off. I tried to do as you suggest, to move it slightly with my finger, but I can't move it even one milimeter - but I tried it when ifalled down on the floppy, maybe I should try to do it when it's in standard position?
It's a little dirty inside, so I will try to clean it, but the head seems to be clean. I will also try all floppies that I have, because I found on another forum that someone had 95% floppies dead after 20 years of not using it. My situation is the same - the floppies weren't used for about 20 years, but were kept in good conditions, in dry and dark place, in the plastic case, so they are clean and without any dust. My 3,5" floppies are kept in the same place and all of them work. But comparing it to my 3,5" drive I'm not sure if it even tries to read the floppy.
It seems that I'm not the only one who has this kind of problem. Apart from the video which I gave you a link to in previous post, I found this on another forum:
One was an NEC FD1157C (Dec 1987!) which did seek to track 83 but refused to read anything, and unlike a 3.5" drive I tried earlier, behaved the same with and without a disk inserted. Luckily this is already listed on your page of supported drives, so it must be a problem with the drive. I will test it in a PC and see if it behaves any different (only found this drive two days ago in a dumpster so perhaps this is no surprise.) Slow firmware didn't help.
Click to expand...
Same model, same problem - I also have NEC FD1157C. I don't know about its condition, because I bought it few days ago and the seller said that he connected it to his PC, the light turned on and he heard the spinning sound, so he claimed that it works. But he didn't have any 5,25" floppies to check, so it didn't prove anything.
 
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It only takes ONE bad disk to foul the heads and then no disks can be read until the heads have been cleaned. This is a well known fact with older disks. You need to clean the heads to be sure of anything. And then you need to use a disk that is known to be good because if you don't you might be using a disk that will foul the heads again. It only takes one sceond for a bad disk to foul the heads.
 
Maybe you are right, also the drive probably weren't used for a very long time. Can you give me some hints on how to clean it? Do I need to buy something special to do it? I don't want to damage it more.
 
I cleaned it with some alcohol, but it didn't make any difference. Here is the link to my video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxxu2AGxxD0
The subtitles are both in polish and english, you can see english translation on the right side of the video or at the bottom under this line _______. I suggest to watch it in fullscreen.
The head is not stuck - in native position I can move it all the way with my finger.
 
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kamiledi15,
From your quick moving video it's hard to determine if your cable has a twist for conductors 10 thru 16 before the last two connectors. I'm assuming the last two
connectors are for an Edge Connector used on a 5 1/4" and a DIP connector used on a 3.5" floppy.

If that is the case, and you are still using the NEC FD1157C 1.2Meg Floppy, the first thing to do is to check the jumpers as per the NEC documentation.

Since you are using a Floppy Cable with a twist your last drive on the Cable will be Drive 0, BUT MUST be set via JUMPERS to Drive 1.
This is because the IBM standard that was used to make it easy for folks to set their systems up without knowing anything about Jumpers, because all
the drives shipped were strapped as Drive 1 and the Cable twist took care of Drive 0. But, as you and I know most folks that got through the
first couple grades of school can count past three. So, why not use the drives jumpers to determine it's settings. Maybe they saved a jumper and three pins....
but it took the Cable makers more time to twist the conductors......

So, check your Jumpers according to this Document I found on the Internet. THANKS to Tomas Andersson for being kind enough to post it.

http://jope.fi/drives/necflopp.txt

NEC Floppy Disc Jumper Settings
===============================

FD 1054 360kB
FD 1155 -514
FD 1157C 1.2 MB
FD 1037A 720kB
FD 1137H 1.44MB
FD 1138H 1.44MB
FD 5037A 720kB
FD 5137H 1.44MB
FD 5138H 1.44MB


All of this comes from a very diffuse document faxed to me from Nec
support some 10 years ago. I have not left out any information even
if I do not understand all of it myself.

The coloured wire on a floppy cable shold always be used for pin 1.
On a 5.25-drive connector pin 1 is the side closest to the key-slice.
On a 3.5-drive you can look on the soldering where pin 1 should have
a square soldering point while all the other are round.


FD1054 360kB
------------

These drives are compatible with standard Floppy interface.

Configuration 1: Non-twisted cable

Computer USE MON VC M1 DCG LM0 LM1 DX
XT 2 1 On On 1 0 1 see note
AT 2 1 On On 2 0 1 see note

note: Drive 1 (A:) has DX=0, drive 2 (B:) has DX=1


Configuration 2: Twisted cable (pin 10-16 twisted), Drive 2 and controller
are on one the same side of the twist, and drive 1 is on the other side.

Computer USE MON VC M1 DCG LM0 LM1 DX
XT 2 3 On On 1 0 1 see note
AT 2 3 On On 2 0 1 see note

note: Both drive 1 (A:) and drive 2 (B:) has DX=1

My note: The original document had a very unclear layout and it is
possible that the MON values should be interchanged, so that
configuration 1 is MON=3 and configuration 2 is MON=1 instead.



FD1157C 1.2 MB
----------------

These drives are compatibel with standard Floppy interface.

Configuration 1: Non-twisted cable

USE MON VC HDE DEN M1 DCG LM1 LM2 DX
2 1 On 1 1 On 2 0 0 see note

note: Drive 1 (A:) has DX=0, drive 2 (B:) has DX=1


Configuration 2: Twisted cable (pin 10-16 twisted), Drive 2 and controller
are on one the same side of the twist, and drive 1 is on the other side.

USE MON VC HDE DEN M1 DCG LM1 LM2 DX
2 3 On 1 1 On 2 0 0 1

note: Both drive 1 (A:) and drive 2 (B:) has DX=1



FD1037A 720kB
FD1137H 1.44MB
FD1138H 1.44MB
FD5037A 720kB
FD5137H 1.44MB
FD5138H 1.44MB
---------------

These drives are compatible with standard Floppy interface.
Twisted or non-twisted cable can be used. When using a
twisted cable both drive 1 (A:) and drive 2 (B:) should have
the DX jumper in position 1. When using a non-twisted cable
drive 1 (A:) should have DX=0 and drive 2 (B:) shold have DX=1.

A twisted cable has pin 10-16 twisted, drive 2 and controller on
the same side of the twist, and drive 1 is on the other side.

My note: FD5037A, FD5137H and FD5138H might be mounted on an adapter
thing to fit in a 5.25"-slot, and the DX jumper may in that case be
located on the adapter thing and not on the actual 3.5"-drive.



FD1155-514
----------

My note: Yes, the tables (1)..(4) really looks like this. I have
checked and double-checked my typing since some of it lookes
a little illogical, at least to me.


(1) Head Load Condition

HS USE
Drive select & head load 1 1
Drive select 1 2
Head load 2 1
Drive select & motor on 1 3
Motor on 2 3 *


(2) Motor On Condition

MON
Drive select 3
Head load 2
Motor on 1 *


(3) Display Lamp Contidion

IUS USC LED
Head load 2 1 1 and 4
Head load & Drive select 2 1 1 and 5
Drive select - 2 and 4
Ready - 3 and 4
Ready & Drive select - 3 and 5
Drive select - 2 and 5
Head load 1 - 1 and 4
Head load & Drive select 1 - 1 and 5 *

Note: "-" indicates that the plug position is allowed
mounting on any position.


(4) Density Switching

Record High/Normal Plug position
density density signal DEN

High H level 1 *
Normal L level

Normal H level 2
High L level

High H level 3
High L level

High H level Open
Normal L level


(5) Rotation Change

Rotation in a normal density mode HDE
360rmp ("single speed mode") 1 *
300rmp ("dual speed mode") 2

Note: A rotation in a high-density mode is 360 rpm for both
short plug "HED"=1 and 2.


(6) Disk Change/Ready

Disk change/ready signal output condition DCG
Ready signal 1
Disk change signal 2 *


Option Plug Position On PWB:

.---.
| |
| |
| |
| `--.
| |
| |
`-. `---. .---.
_| #IOS | | |
´= #DX | ----------´ |
| `------------´ |
| ## MON## ##HS ## |
| DCG ## DEN |
| HDE## LED |
`-. ____ _ |
`--´ `-----------------´ `--------´



/Tomas Andersson, January 2001.
Click to expand...

If your drive is set accordingly, and it is a functional drive with a known good 5 1/4" floppy with data you should have no trouble reading it.
Just be sure the floppy has been previously formatted, and has some files copied to it when you are testing the drive.

Let us know how it's going, and exactly how the jumpers were strapped before you changed them.

Thanks.

Larry
 
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it's hard to determine if your cable has a twist for conductors 10 thru 16 before the last two connectors.
Click to expand...
Sorry about that - this is the photo of my cable:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/p1010035k.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/p1010036sj.jpg/
I think that this is BOTH with twist and without twist - because two connectors are before the twist and the last two are after it.
and you are still using the NEC FD1157C 1.2Meg Floppy
Click to expand...
Yes: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/p1010037dv.jpg/
BUT MUST be set via JUMPERS to Drive 1.
Click to expand...
Configuration 2: Twisted cable (pin 10-16 twisted), Drive 2 and controller
are on one the same side of the twist, and drive 1 is on the other side.

USE MON VC HDE DEN M1 DCG LM1 LM2 DX
2 3 On 1 1 On 2 0 0 1

note: Both drive 1 (A:) and drive 2 (B:) has DX=1
Click to expand...
Hmm... So it goes like this:
USE - 2
MON - 3
VC - On
HDE - 1
DEN - 1
M1 - On
DCG - 2
LM1 - 0
LM2 - 0
DX - 1
Unfortunately one part is missing - I mean this black part, which connects two yellow wires on the jumpers. I would need 10 of them and I have only 9. I set everything according to this instruction, but I can't set M1 to On because of this missing part. Can I replace it with something? Maybe I can wrap around a tiny wire to make the jumper work?
I'm also not sure about this part - HDE - 1, DEN - 1. So is it set correctly now? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/p1010038zp.jpg/
At the beginning my jumpers were set in completely different way - USE - 2, MON - 1, VC - On, HDE - 1, DEN - 1, M1 - Off, DCG - 2, LM1 - 0, LM2 - 1, DX - 1.

EDIT

Ok, I found a wire and wrapped it around the VC jumper, so now it looks like this:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/p1010046jn.jpg/
But it didn't change anything - it behaves exactly the same like on the previous configuration, so I only keep getting "General failure reading Drive A". When I'm trying to format the floppy, the head keeps moving and when I get 100% and "format complete" message, I also get another message: "Unable to write BOOT, format terminated", as you could see on the video.
I also tried the configuration for non-twist cable and connected it with the connector before the twist. With DX-0 and MON-1 I only get "Not ready reading Drive A" message, the same happens with Drive B. With DX-1 and MON-1 the drive completely doesn't react and I only get something about "Seek Drive A" error or something like that.
Just be sure the floppy has been previously formatted, and has some files copied to it
Click to expand...
But I'm not even able to copy anything to the floppy :(
Is there any program which would tell me if the problem is with the floppy or with the drive? I think that the problem is double, with the floppies and with the drive. But don't you know any program which would test the floppy disc?
 
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kamiledi15,
The easiest thing to do is to try and format the drive from a command window. Go to START, RUN, and type cmd, then enter. You should be on the command line with a C:\xxxx prompt.
Try typing:
dir a:

and see if the LED comes on for Drive A:, and if the Motor Spins for A:, and if the Head loads & steps. If that works try to format A:. I'd think format would be in C:\windows\system32\format A:
but I might be wrong. It's been years since I used Windows. When you do this the same actions should happen, Drive A Motor Spins, Drive A LED comes on, and the Head loads & steps.

If the Floppy hasn't been formatted, you won't be able to access it. It has to be FORMATTED, before you can do a DIR etc, otherwise you get errors.

Larry
 
I already tried to do this, but I'm getting some kind of an error. I already recorded it on the video, which I published in one of my previous posts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb_3jy9CBDc
The action which you are talking about - trying to format from cmd window - starts in 5:15. Yes, the light turns on, the motor spins, but I'm getting an error about path 0.
 
I'll try, but I don't think it would help - on the video I had one hand busy with the camera, normally I can push the mechanism with one hand before starting the format with second hand, so I don't know if it makes any difference if I push it with my finger or with piece of paper. But ok, I will try.
Also please check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOmd-R_ICe8
This guy had very similiar problem and he even has exactly the same model, but he didn't push the mechanism which spins the floppy, but the head which reads the disc. As you can see, he was getting the same messages as me: "Not ready reading Drive B" and "General Failure reading Drive B". But after few tries he gets other messages and finally he is able to read the floppy. In my case I'm only getting this "General Failure" message and it refuses to go any further.
Of course I also tried to push the head down, but it didn't help.
 
The video makes it look like the drive won't properly clamp down on the disk. Could well be worn out. Check to see if anything got jammed in various points that move. A small piece of dust might just be enough to prevent operation if it is in exactly the wrong place.

Also, instead of using a VM or the Windows host OS, see if booting Freedos could work. DOS in a VM won't work with a floppy unless the host OS works with the floppy as well. Freedos has the best chance of working with your system and a floppy. Of course, Freedos won't magically make a broken floppy work.

I could be wrong.
 
The instalation of this Freedos seems a bit complicated, but I will try. But in the video I booted the Dos instead of Windows before the system started and formatted the floppy from there - isn't it the same as Freedos? It wasn't booted from VMWare.
I used this to boot the Dos: http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/46707-ms-dos-bootable-flash-drive-create.html
When you can see Dos on the video in fullscreen, it's booted from flash drive. From VMWare I only booted Windows 2.1 on the video, all these "Not ready reading Drive A" and "General failure reading Drive A" come from booted Dos.
Installing Freedos requires to create another partition, which, as I heard, requires to format the disc. And storing 97 gb on dvds would be a little problematic now.
Larry - I did as you said, I've put a piece of paper so I don't have to hold my finger there anymore, but still no success.
And I edited my post #92 after krebizfan answered, so check it out - some guy had similiar problem and he was able to fix it quite easily.
 
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Thank you for this detailed instruction. So far I tried to make Test 1 - but I can't undestand this part:
"LM2 middle-2 (Display lamp)"
I can only set LM2 to 0 or to 1 - I'm not sure what do you mean.
Here is how I did it:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/p1010038fm.jpg/
Let me know if you need more detailed photo of each jumper separated.
Unfortunately it seems that DCG must be set to 2, because when it's set to 1, the drive doesn't even recognise that there is a floppy inside and it tells me to put the floppy in, even if it is already inside. So the head makes few quick movements, as you could see in my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb_3jy9CBDc in 0:12 and in Dos it tells me "Not ready reading drive A" and in Windows it tells me to put the floppy inside (and it is already inside). When it's on position 2, you saw what happens in the rest of the video.
About Test 2 and 3 - I can't locate the HS jumper - where is it? I can't find it anywhere. Also:
If this doesn't work try DSC back on 2.
Click to expand...
DSC? Do you mean DCG? I can't see DSC jumper anywhere.
 
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Yes, it's weird. Maybe there is some mechanical problem or maybe all my floppies are dead.
About the VC jumper, you probably saw on the photo that I wrapped it around with tiny wire. Did I do it correctly?
One guy wants to send me another drive with few working floppies, he just has to check this week if it's in working condition.
 
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I just couldn't resist adding the 100th post to a thread with so much irrelevant, confusing, and sometimes downright incorrect information ;-)

The original jumper settings were correct; I don't think the changes you made would make any difference, but I'd suggest putting them back the way they were.

Back to basics:
- What type of diskette are you trying to format, and is the density actually labelled from the factory?
- How are you trying to format them, specifically? I assume you've discovered that you can not format a 5.25 diskette from within XP, and if you use DOS or a CMD prompt you have to specify tracks and sectors:
1.2MB diskette: /T:80 /N:15
360kB diskette: /T:40 /N:9

There's some mention of the disk not being grabbed properly; if that is indeed the case then that obviously has to be repaired before you play with the jumpers.

Is the shield properly attached to the upper head? They had a habit of coming loose and falling off.

BTW, @ldkraemer: the 'twist' is not there because people could not count to three, it is in fact a clever way of turning on individual drive motors on old drives that did not have that option. And what do you expect to glean by looking at a TM100?
 
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