How can I use a 5.25 floppy on a modern computer? I need urgent help.

[kamiledi15]

- What type of diskette are you trying to format, and is the density actually labelled from the factory?

This diskette is labelled: "Verbatim Verex MD2-HD, Double Sided, High Density, Soft-Sectored". Another one is labelled: "Verbatim DataLifePlus MD2-HD Teflon Protection Formatted for IBM PC's, AT's and other 1,2 MB systems, Double Sided - High Density". In cmd it stops at 0% and I'm getting an error: "Invalid floppy or damaged path 0 - the floppy can't be used" (free translation from polish, so it may be a little different in english). In Dos formatting goes to 100% and then it says "Unable to write boot, format terminated". I don't want to try formatting other diskettes because of the data which is stored on them - I don't want to lose it.

How are you trying to format them, specifically? I assume you've discovered that you can not format a 5.25 diskette from within XP, and if you use DOS or a CMD prompt you have to specify tracks and sectors:
1.2MB diskette: /T:80 /N:15
360kB diskette: /T:40 /N:9

When I was recording the video, I just typed "format a:". After your post I tried to type "format a: /T:80 /N:15", but the result was the same.

if that is indeed the case then that obviously has to be repaired

I don't think that I will find anyone in my neighbourhood who would be able to fix it. People who are repairing computers don't want to take older technology, because they don't have parts for it. As I said, maybe I will be able to get another, this time working drive, but this guy has to check if it works. But if you have any ideas about how I could fix it by myself, feel free to tell me.

Is the shield properly attached to the upper head? They had a habit of coming loose and falling off.

Do you mean this thing? http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/14/4f/204ce65ce76229c0a7e4d043930804f1.jpg
Yes, it fell off, but I attached it again with glue. I don't know if I did it correctly.

 

[MikeS]

Ah, we may have found the problem. Yes, that is the head shield and if you just glued it on you will almost certainly have caused a problem; I hope you didn't glue it on too well ;-)

Carefully remove that silver-coloured square shield and try to format again (or read a known good disk); be careful not to damage the head assembly underneath.

FYI: if you try to format a completely blank disk with XP's format command, it will default to 160kB; if it tries to format 1.2MB then that means the disk has been formatted and the drive can at least read side 0, track 0.

Good luck!

 

[kamiledi15]

I took it off again, but it didn't make much difference. The only difference is that the shield was blocking the head, so it couldn't drop down on the diskette and without it it drops, but the messages in Dos and command line are still the same.

if you try to format a completely blank disk with XP's format command, it will default to 160kB;

You are right, in command line it always stops at 160 kb, but after that I get the message that the diskette is invalid or path 0 is damaged. In Dos it doesn't tell me anything about 160 kb, instead it goes slowly to 100% and then I got "Format terminated, unable to write boot".

 

[MikeS]

I took it off again, but it didn't make much difference. The only difference is that the shield was blocking the head, so it couldn't drop down on the diskette and without it it drops, but the messages in Dos and command line are still the same.

You are right, in command line it always stops at 160 kb, but after that I get the message that the diskette is invalid or path 0 is damaged. In Dos it doesn't tell me anything about 160 kb, instead it goes slowly to 100% and then I got "Format terminated, unable to write boot".

The shield keeping the head from contacting the diskette was definitely a problem; 160K is single sided, so the upper head doesn't have to work but it does have to put pressure on the lower head.

Looks like you have another problem though; have you tried reading a few other disks that you KNOW are good?

I think the English error message is "Invalid media or Track 0 bad - Disk unusable"; maybe it really means what it says?

What about the diskette not being grabbed properly? Was that a misunderstanding or is it really true?

Do you have a bulk eraser or at least a strong magnet with which to erase whatever junk may be on the disk by now?

BTW, when formatting use the /U option.

Do you have any DD disks to try instead of HD?

 

[kamiledi15]

have you tried reading a few other disks that you KNOW are good?

Well, all of these disks wasn't used for about 20 years, so I don't know if any of them still works. But I have also some original games, like Blues Brothers and Home Alone, I think that they should still work, because I have also some very old 3,5" floppies, like original Flashback from 1992 and it still works perfectly.

I think the English error message is "Invalid media or Track 0 bad - Disk unusable"; maybe it really means what it says?

You are probably right. I have polish version, so I had to translate it by myself for you.

What about the diskette not being grabbed properly? Was that a misunderstanding or is it really true?

I think that it's true. If you watched my video you saw, that the diskette was grabbed after I pushed my finger on the motor and after putting my finger away it released the diskette. For example while formatting in Dos I had to keep my finger all the time and I saw that it goes on, because the percents were counting: 1%, 2%, 3% etc and the head was slowly moving toward the floppy. And when I put my finger away it stopped and didn't go on. Now I've put there a piece of paper, so I don't have to keep my finger there anymore.

Do you have a bulk eraser or at least a strong magnet with which to erase whatever junk may be on the disk by now?

Unfortunately no. Do you think that the reason is that the data was recorded in incorrect way?

BTW, when formatting use the /U option.

So how exactly should I type it? "format a: T:80 /N:15 /U", is it correct?

Do you have any DD disks to try instead of HD?

I don't know, because most of them are not labelled. The ones which are labelled are HD.

 

[MikeS]

I assume you're running with the cover removed? Did you by any chance remove both screws on the right hand side, not just the one that holds the cover? That would let the main assembly lift up and off the frame when you flip the latch instead of pressing down on the disk.

Usually (but not always) DD diskettes have a reinforcing ring around the center hole, while the HD diskettes do not.

 

[kamiledi15]

Did you by any chance remove both screws on the right hand side, not just the one that holds the cover? That would let the main assembly lift up and off the frame when you flip the latch instead of pressing down on the disk.

Hmm, so I have to remove also the shield from the second head? Because there are two heads, one is at the top of the diskette and it has the shield removed and the second one is under the diskette and it still has the shield attached, but I didn't have to glue it, because it was already attached. Both heads are connected to each other, so they make the same movements.

 

[MikeS]

Hmm, so I have to remove also the shield from the second head? Because there are two heads, one is at the top of the diskette and it has the shield removed and the second one is under the diskette and it still has the shield attached, but I didn't have to glue it, because it was already attached. Both heads are connected to each other, so they make the same movements.

No, I'm not talking about the head shields; don't worry about the bottom one and just leave the top one off for now.

I'm talking about the big metal cover over the whole top of the drive. It's held on with three screws, one of which also attaches the disk latch assembly to the drive frame; if you've removed that screw and maybe also accidentally the one close to the front then the diskette will not be grabbed properly.

These two screws should be installed:

 

[kamiledi15]

I attached the upper cover again, but it didn't make any difference - now it's even worse, because now I can't format the diskette in Dos and previously I was able to do this - I'm getting "General Failure Reading Drive A". The upper shield is still removed, but I don't have the down cover - the seller didn't include it, I have only the upper one.

Usually (but not always) DD diskettes have a reinforcing ring around the center hole, while the HD diskettes do not.

Could you show me a photo?

 

[Stone]

You need a diskette that you know to be good and working. Until you have that to work with you'll be spinning your wheels. A bad diskette will foul every drive you put it into. IOW, you need to verify that a diskette works in another drive in order to be able to use it in the drive in question. Many 20 year old diskettes are flakey.

Here's a pic of the diskette with the ring:

http://www.fileformat.info/media/5.25-floppy/zoom-top.htm

 

[kamiledi15]

Here's a pic of the diskette with the ring:

Hmm, so it seems that I don't have any DD diskettes.
I'm still waiting for the answer from the guy who wants to send me another drive with few working diskettes - he didn't have time to check if it works yet.
About the formatting problem, I need to check if I didn't mess with the jumpers.
Should I also have the lower cover? I have only the upper one.

 

[Stone]

Hmm, so it seems that I don't have any DD diskettes.

Not necessarily, but probably. Like MikeS said, most, but not all DD disksettes have the ring. And, it doesn't have to be white. It can be black (or any color). To be sure you can test the diskettes you have in a HD drive. If they can be formatted to 1.2M they are not DD diskettes.

 

[kamiledi15]

The guy who wants to send me his drive told me that he has different problem - he can't put the diskette inside, because something blocks it in the last 3 centimeters. He will try to take off the cover next week and check what blocks it, but he said that the screws were put there by a machine, so it's hard to take it off. He said that few years ago it was working. Well, I have to wait and have hope

 

[kamiledi15]

Well, this another guy sent me another drive. He claimed that it's in working condition - he posted few screenshots on which I can see that it works. But, in my computer... The symptoms are identical as before. I don't have to keep my finger on the head, but in Dos I'm getting "General Failure Reading Drive A", while trying to format it in Dos: "Format terminated - unable to write Boot", in WinXP it says that the floppy is not formatted. This guy sent me few floppies which he checked and he knows for sure that these floppies are in working condition. I can hear and see that the drive works while I'm trying to open or format the floppy, because the light turns on and I can hear the engine working. What is the reason? The drive is in working condition, the floppies are in working condition, in Bios I can choose 5,25" floppy, he also sent me his cable, so it's also in working condition, the 3,5" drive works perfectly... Maybe it's because I'm using WinXP, but in Dos it shouldn't count. Or maybe it's because I'm using polish letters in the name of the "user" in WinXP. I also have another computer, few years older, but it also has WinXP installed and the symptoms are identical. Maybe I'll try to install Win98SE (I've got original CD) on this older computer without using VMWare and polish letters.
He sent it to me for free, I didn't have to pay for that, so I believe that it really worked for him. But it's the same model as before - NEC FD1157C.

 

[billdeg]

I have a generic pentium III 1ghz with an IBM 360 5155 half height Tandon drive installed in a cd bay. I use a Catweasel 4 card to read disks. I can read many formats, seems to work very well.

This is quite a long thread.

Find a 486 with 3.5 and 5 1/4" drive andlife is so much easier. Every vintage computearian should have one!

 

[kamiledi15]

Finally... I was able to run this drive.
I probably told you before, that I have another computer - few years older (about 2005, the newer one is from 2008 ), with WinXP installed. I don't use it anymore, so I decided to install Win98 on it. I didn't have any hope, but I decided to try. When there was WinXP installed, I checked the previous drive and it didn't work, so I didn't test the newer drive - and it was probably the mistake, because after installing Win98, the drive finally started to work correctly - formatting, recording and opening files. But the previous drive still doesn't work - so I still don't know if it's the computer's and drive's fault or only drive's fault. So this previous drive is really broken and all my floppies are good. Tomorrow I'll try to install Win98 on pendrive and run it on my main computer. It's a little weird, because 5,25" drive should work in WinXP, right? It can't format the floppy, but it should be able to at least open it. And why it didn't work in VMWare Win98 and in bootable Dos on pendrive?
I hope that it will start to work after installing Win98 on pendrive. I know that it would be better to install it on the computer, but I don't want to lose all my files on the hard disc.
So previously I had a broken drive AND there was some problem in the computer. Now I have working drive, but there is still some problem in the computer - maybe Windows version, maybe polish letters... We will see tomorrow.

 

[MikeS]

A 5.25 High Density drive should work fine in XP, as long as it's correctly jumpered and the BIOS is correctly configured; when you first posted here with your problem I installed one of my FD1157C drives in a P4 XP system and I've used it several times since then with no problems.

A few people have reported success using a 360kB DD drive with XP but for most people that does not work.

As you know you can not format any disks from within XP and have to run FORMAT from a CMD prompt with the /u, /t and /n options, e.g.:
FORMAT B: /U /T:40 /N:9 (for 360kB DD diskette and format)
FORMAT B: /U /T:80 /N:15 (for 1.2MB HD diskette and format)

 

[Agent Orange]

FWIW, I'm currently running a 5.25 HD floppy on my PIII tweener with a 1.4 MB Tualatin CPU and Xp with no problems whatsoever.

 

[kamiledi15]

I don't know how is it possible, but after reconnecting this 5,25" drive - for the umpteenth time - it suddenly started to work. I'm talking about the "new" drive, which I've got recently, because the previous one still doesn't work and is probably broken - because it says that all my floppies are broken (it tells me to format it and then it's impossible to proceed with formatting) and they work perfectly in the second drive. But until today there was identical problem with this "newer" drive, so maybe the problem is similiar. But you probably remember that I had to keep my finger on the head on this previous drive, so something is wrong for sure. And I don't have to do this with the new drive.
I have no explanation for it, because I connected it MANY times and 3,5 drive was ALWAYS working and 5,25 started to work an hour ago. I also connected this 5,25 drive few times to the second computer with Win98 and it also always worked. So maybe the previous drive is not broken, but maybe there is the same problem with connection? Who knows.

There is still a problem with switching between two drives - 3,5" and 5,25". When both drives are connected AFTER THE TWIST - only 5,25" drive works. So to make 3,5" work I have to unplug the cable from 5,25". I don't even have to change anything in BIOS - even if 5,25" has set 3,5" capacity, it still works, just the icon is different. When any of the drive is connected BEFORE THE TWIST - none of them works. So my question is - is it possible to switch between 3,5" and 5,25" drive without unplugging one of them? I know that my BIOS probably can't use BOTH drives at once, but I would like to switch between them in BIOS.

 

[MikeS]

I'm not sure I understand; you're connecting both drives simultaneously after the twist? How would the computer know which one to talk to?

I believe you said that your BIOS only has one floppy drive entry? In that case only the drive after the twist would be connected to the controller. The only way I can think of to have both drives connected is to modify the cable and add a switch that switches the drive select and motor on signals between the two drives.