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Issue with Mac SE/30 and FloppyEmu as HD20

Old_hitech

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Dec 30, 2016
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Ventura CA
My SCSI hard drive quit working on my Mac SE/30 and I am looking for a solid state replacement. I have a Floppy Emu and Ruminator II installed. I have tried to use the FloppyEmu as an HD20, but my System 6.08 and System 7.1 disk images are not working right. They both boot up fine and provide a desktop and I can access the left side upper apple "about" information. I can even open and close folders. But when I open an application like MacDraw it launches and I can do some things, but then it will crash. My only option is to power down the Mac and power back on. At this point, the disk image does not boot properly and says there is a disk error. I searched the web for solutions and found that a clean SD card with only the HD20 disk image may help. I'm going to give that a try.
 

ajacocks

VCF MA Committee Member
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I've not tried that combo, and unfortunately, due to a fire, my SE/30 is inaccessible right now.

I'd suggest asking over on 68kMLA, as this sort of thing is their specialty. Alternately, ask BMOW (Steve Chamberlain) himself. If you post on his blog, he's usually pretty responsive, as is the community around his products.

- Alex
 

dillera

hacking irix in philly
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I have a SCSI2SD internal in my SE/30 that is great. If you want to stay external they make a little external version I use on my SE (link below). These will give you more options than the FloppyEmu, plus they will be faster on the SCSI port than on the floppy port. With the SCSI2SD you can have multiple 'drives' set on a SD card and you even use it to emulate CDROMs. It's very useful.

https://store.inertialcomputing.com/product-p/scsi2sd-v5.5-usps-int-1st.htm

-andy
 

GiGaBiTe

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The problem you're having with MacDraw is running a 24 bit program on a 32 bit CPU and OS.

MacDraw is an ancient 24 bit program released with the original 1984 Macintosh. Most Macintosh computers up to the release of System 6 used the Motorola 68000, which had a 24 bit address bus. Since memory was so limited back then, one space saving trick used was to take the high byte of the memory address (the upper eight bits) and use it to store flags and status registers. This was OK on the 68000 because the upper eight address bits were ignored since they weren't used.

However, when the 68020 came around, it became a big problem because those eight bits were suddenly part of the memory map and programs randomly editing the upper byte of the memory address caused havoc. Since the Macintosh System Software itself, and even the ToolBox code in the ROM did this in "24 bit dirty" machines, Apple had to make 32 bit addressing optional in System 7 to retain backwards compatibility with older machines and software. But even with this backwards compatibility, 24 bit applications often still did not work properly and could cause crashes and massive corruption.

The "solution" is to avoid running 24 bit applications like MacDraw on System 7, or on Macintoshes with 68020 or later CPUs because you're playing with fire. There's really no reason to even be using MacDraw on a SE/30 when there are more modern applications like ClarisWorks that do the same thing and work fine.

If you absolutely must use 24 bit Applications, make sure they're on a Macintosh with a 68000 running System 6 or earlier. Or use an emulator.
 

Old_hitech

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Messages
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Thanks for the replies. Appreciate the detailed explanation on 24-bit MacDraw. I am experiencing FloppyEMU HD20 mode crashes and errors when I just boot to System 7.1 and check the About menu and open and close a couple of folders then select Shutdown and turn on my SE/30. When I turn it on again and it tries to boot to System 7.1, but gives error like Finder is missing or -127 error. I have not even tried to run an application. I have just tried some basic system/finder tasks. Very strange.
I'm an about to order a SCSI2SD from inertial computing and have some questions. I like the internal drive model and there seems to be different version numbers of V5.1 or V5.2. Which one should I get? Also does the mounting bracket fit and mounting screws holes align okay with the SE/30?. I am also going to need a floppy to 4pin Molex power harness. I have a MacBook Pro running macOS Mojave. What is the easiest way to build a hard drive image of System 7.1 for the SCSI2SD?
 

GiGaBiTe

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Has your install of System 7.1 previously experienced any crashes from misbehaving applications like MacDraw? It only takes one system crash to cause file system corruption. The Hierarchical File System (HFS) that Classic Mac OS used is notoriously unreliable and is very vulnerable to corruption. Any serious Mac user back in the day had usually a suite of programs for fixing corruption issues, Norton Disk Doctor being one of the most common.

I was recently trying to play Dark Castle on my Mac SE FDHD with a 68030 upgrade running System 7.1.1. It clobbered the screen with garbage, made ear piercing static noise and then crashed the system. Upon rebooting, I was greeted with the floppy disk with a flashing question mark, indicating the drive had been corrupted. Using a startup disk I was able to run Norton Disk Doctor that had revealed all four partitions had been corrupted so badly that the only option was to reformat and reinstall. Running the game on System 6.0.8 had no issues.

According to the table of Mac System errors, error -127 is "hMenuFindErr: could not find HMenu's parent in MenuKey", which means something isn't right within whatever data structure is being used by the Finder. I would suspect some sort of disk corruption, or malfunctioning bit of hardware. I'm not really familiar with the FloppyEMU, but it could be having compatibility or configuration issues.

As for what SCSI2SD version to use, just get the plain 5.2 board:
https://store.inertialcomputing.com/SCSI2SD-V5-2-p/scsi2sd-v5.2.htm

There are no brackets sold by Inertial Computing that will mount properly in a compact mac's 3.5" hard drive bay. When I installed one in a customer's Mac SE, I had to print an adapter. This adapter should work fine with the use of standoffs:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1827530

Standoffs:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313424166115
 

dillera

hacking irix in philly
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Thanks for the replies. Appreciate the detailed explanation on 24-bit MacDraw. I am experiencing FloppyEMU HD20 mode crashes and errors when I just boot to System 7.1 and check the About menu and open and close a couple of folders then select Shutdown and turn on my SE/30. When I turn it on again and it tries to boot to System 7.1, but gives error like Finder is missing or -127 error. I have not even tried to run an application. I have just tried some basic system/finder tasks. Very strange.
I'm an about to order a SCSI2SD from inertial computing and have some questions. I like the internal drive model and there seems to be different version numbers of V5.1 or V5.2. Which one should I get? Also does the mounting bracket fit and mounting screws holes align okay with the SE/30?. I am also going to need a floppy to 4pin Molex power harness. I have a MacBook Pro running macOS Mojave. What is the easiest way to build a hard drive image of System 7.1 for the SCSI2SD?

PM me and I can send you an image you can dd onto your own SD card...

Setting up is difficult unless you have all the disks and or emulation on an older mac. But you have to setup just like a regular disk you would have put into the Mac... Plus you need a modified version of HDSetup to recognize the new disks on the SCS2HD.
 

Old_hitech

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Going to order a SCSI2SD

Going to order a SCSI2SD

PM me and I can send you an image you can dd onto your own SD card...

Setting up is difficult unless you have all the disks and or emulation on an older mac. But you have to setup just like a regular disk you would have put into the Mac... Plus you need a modified version of HDSetup to recognize the new disks on the SCS2HD.

I'm not having much luck with the FloppyEMU HD20 emulation. Not sure my SE30 is all working right. Is there a diagnostic application that will run from the internal floppy drive? I am going to order the SCSI2SD card and bracket for my SE30. I will PM you to receive an image. Thanks.
 

coredump4

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May 17, 2019
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I seem to recall that HD20s are actually not supported on the SE/30. If true, that may explain your issues.
 

zamp

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Location
Finger Lakes, NY, USA
PM me and I can send you an image you can dd onto your own SD card...

Setting up is difficult unless you have all the disks and or emulation on an older mac. But you have to setup just like a regular disk you would have put into the Mac... Plus you need a modified version of HDSetup to recognize the new disks on the SCS2HD.
Hi dillera - Could you share a copy of your image with me as well? I've got an SE/30 that I'd like to get working with a SCSI2SD.
 

dillera

hacking irix in philly
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CoreDump is right.

The (non-SCSI) Hard Disk 20 does not work with the Macintosh SE/30. The Macintosh SE/30 has the same logic board and ROM as the Macintosh IIx, which does not support the Hard Disk 20. Therefore, the code to support the drive is not included in the ROM of the Macintosh SE/30.

I'm just going thru this myself and wondering why my HD20 image on floppyEmu isn't showing up on the '30 when it works fine on the SE.
 

Eudimorphodon

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Upper Triassic
CoreDump is right.

The (non-SCSI) Hard Disk 20 does not work with the Macintosh SE/30. The Macintosh SE/30 has the same logic board and ROM as the Macintosh IIx, which does not support the Hard Disk 20. Therefore, the code to support the drive is not included in the ROM of the Macintosh SE/30.

I'm just going thru this myself and wondering why my HD20 image on floppyEmu isn't showing up on the '30 when it works fine on the SE.

Zombie Thread Alert! ;)

FWIW, the OP that started this thread mentioned having a "Rominator II" installed in his SE/30; the hacked ROM code on that device adds the HD20 driver. This explains why he was getting as far as he was. (The Rominator also makes an SE/30 "32 bit clean" internally and a bunch of other modifications, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear of odd issues with old software, possible sketchiness in the HD20 driver aside.) I can see the attraction of adding HD20 support to those machines in order to use the Floppy Emu as a big fat sneakernet option, but I'd never say it's the "right" way to implement a full-time hard disk for that machine. You've got SCSI, you should use it.

For people without a Rominator supposedly there was a "MacIIHD20" INIT driver that was distributed on an Apple developer CD, presumably to help people shovel their files onto their new Mac (once). It's mentioned in a bunch of threads on mac-centric forums but finding an actual download of it seems to be a trick.
 

bear

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Macintosh II HD-20 Support
6/5/87

Warning:
This software is not supported. Additionally, the hardware and even the manual (this document) is not supported. It is not a product, and is to be used at the risk of the user. Caveat Emptor!
!

Macintosh II HD-20 Support

! Warning:
Since the Macintosh II internal IWM port is not buffered (as external IWM ports are in other Macintosh products); there exists a real danger of causing severe damage to the IWM itself when installing. Taking the precautions recommended here minimizes the risk of this happening, however some damage may still occur since the Macintosh II was not designed to support the HD-20. Please read all of this document before even attempting to install any of the hardware. The greatest danger is in installation and removal. At the very least, please keep the number of times that you install/remove this hardware to a bare minimum
!

Installation:
• Turn both the Macintosh II and the HD-20 off. This step is paramount in avoiding costly repairs to both machines.
• Remove the cover of the Macintosh II.
• Touch the power supply in an effort to remove static electricity from your body.
• Remove the floppy drive cable (if your MacII is so equipped) from the internal IWM port #2 (the connector nearest to the NuBus slots).
• Connect the ribbon cable to the IWM port #2.
• Feed the ribbon cable out the rear of the machine (through an open slot access port).
• Replace the cover on your Macintosh II.
• Remove the screw and top cover of your HD-20.
• Touch the power supply in an effort to remove static electricity from your body.
• Remove the cable coming into the HD-20 at the 20 pin connector (this looks amazingly like the Macintosh II's IWM port connector).
• Connect the ribbon cable to the 20 pin connector inside the HD-20.
• Leave the HD-20 in a position where it will be least likely to cause accidental eloctrocution and where the fan is least likely to get external objects (your fingers) in it.
• Turn on the HD-20. (continued on next page)
• Turn on the Macintosh II.
• After booting the Macintosh II, insert the floppy drive to drive #1 (located at the far right hand side of your Mac II) and copy the file "MacIIHD20" to your system folder.
• Select "Restart" from the Special Menu.

Your Macintosh II will now reboot mounting the HD-20. You are now in a position to copy data from the HD-20.
!Recommendation:
Since this software is RAM-based, it is slower than the normal floppy disk driver. You are also at risk of damaging your computer when you install the hardware affiliated with this software. It is the recommendation of the author that you use this software as it was intended, to retrieve data from your HD-20 and place it on a different storage media. Nothing prevents you from using it in an "extended" fashion, except that you are running a risk and there was not enough time to properly trim the execution loops of the driver. I recommend against it.
!

After copying your data from the HD-20, you should remove it to guard against the possibility of an accidental electrocution, damage to your computer equipment, or both.

Removal:

• Remove the file "MacIIHD20" from your system folder.
! Warning:
This software must be removed from the system folder prior to disconnecting the HD-20. Failure to do so will require booting off an alternate system and removing the file "MacIIHD20" from your original system folder while under the alternate system.
!
• Turn off your Macintosh II and your HD-20.
• Touch the power supply of the HD-20 in an effort to remove static electricity from your body.
• Remove the ribbon cable from the 20 pin connector.
• Replace the original cable for the HD-20, replace the cover and secure it with the screw that you previously removed.
• Remove the cover of your Macintosh II.
• Touch the power supply in an effort to remove static electricity from your body. (continued on next page)
• Remove the ribbon cable from the IWM port #2 connector and remove the ribbon cable from the computer.
• Replace the cable from floppy drive #2 (if so equipped) into the IWM port.
• Replace the cover on your Macintosh II.

This completes the removal process.

Use:

The use of this software or hardware voids all warranties on your HD-20 and Macintosh II. Once it is in place, you may use the HD-20 as you would normally, realizing that not enough time to properly modify the driver has been given. You will experience especially long waiting times should you choose to write to the HD-20.

! Warning:
Do not connect an external floppy drive to the pass through connector of the HD-20. This software does not support such configurations. Additionally, the hardware does not support older single sided drives from the IWM port. Failure to comply will bring unexpected results.
!

You may however connect another HD-20 to the pass through connector of the HD-20. The additional HD-20 will operate as does the first.


Configuration:

You will need to have at least the following equipment. A Macintosh II equipped with a viedo card, monitor, ADB mouse, and a SCSI hard disk. This hard disk must have a system folder on it and be the "boot" system. An HD-20 in operating condition. A ribbon cable (20 conductor) with keyed "L" connectors on each end exactly with the same keying as the floppy cables inside the Macintosh II. Appropriate tools for removing the covers of both the Macintosh II and the HD-20.
probably the type/creator codes have been lost from this file. you will likely need to reset them (to... something?) using resedit or similar tool. uploader wouldn't accept the macbinary iii file, so I zipped it. good luck, you may need it.
 

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