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Japanese Commodore PET 2001-32N B Revival - Help!

DeChief

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
42
Location
Tokyo, Japan
So I recently purchased a busted Commodore PET here in Japan and I've been trying to revive it, but a lot of the information out there is conflicting and/or doesn't apply to my PET's motherboard.

It has what seems to be a common problem: garbage on the screen upon boot. It goes past that to a black screen almost immediately afterwards and it looks like the monitor is off completely, although I can hear that it is still on. Sometimes when I plug it in it goes to a screen where I can see the cursor flashing, but there's a bunch of misplaced characters everywhere that change and multiply whenever I type something. Pressing shift+clr clears the screen to a flashing cursor up the top left. I've only been able to get it to boot like this a few times and I can't think of a reason why it would alternate between doing that and just going to/past the garbage screen. It's probably relevant to mention that the switch on the back appears to be locked in place somehow, so the only way I can turn it on and off is directly via the wall plug. Judging by the label on the front of the machine (in Japanese) I think it might've been a computer that stayed on for long periods of time. That would also explain the individual heatsinks present on four of the chips.

So far I have:

- cleaned the board thoroughly - nothing changed
- removed the two 6520's and tried booting it - nothing changed

I can see that some of the pins on the smaller chips on the bottom right corner of the board have what look like rusty pins (sort of black-ish brown), but I checked the continuity on them and they appear to be alright. Before I go spending any money and replacing things, could somebody try explaining to me why nothing happens after the "garbage screen"? I don't want to replace any of the memory chips because the screen displays both english characters/numbers and Japanese katakana characters, which would make sense considering that the keyboard also has katakana on it (along with english).

I'd really like to save this machine, so any and all help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Hi .. there are folks who know more than me who can tell you more, but off the top of my head I have two suggestions for you if you have an EPROM programmer (which you need):
1. Replace the kernel with the pettester.bin and get a good report on the memory.
2. Check the various roms by reading them in and comparing them with the baselines at zimmers.net

Since the garbage goes away, my understanding is that that is actually good progress!

Best of luck,
- Bo
 
Good score. I also have a Japanese 2001-8, which is still in storage in Tokyo unfortunately.

I can't really help to much with the fix, except to say that purchasing one of the ROM/RAM/Diagnostic boards would be hugely recommended (I believe there are/were two in existence)...But what you REALLY need to do first is get a dump of the Japanese character ROM. When I was fixing mine, the character ROM died before I could get a copy of it. There is NO dumps of this ROM in existence. See my page here about this:

http://www.neoncluster.com/projects-pet/pet-japchar.html

As you can see I made a best guess at what the ROM contains, but it was still just a guess.
I've been actively trying to track down an original Japanese Character ROM dump now for about 6 years, so in the words of Princess Leia...You're my only hope.

Phil
 
Hi .. there are folks who know more than me who can tell you more, but off the top of my head I have two suggestions for you if you have an EPROM programmer (which you need):
1. Replace the kernel with the pettester.bin and get a good report on the memory.
2. Check the various roms by reading them in and comparing them with the baselines at zimmers.net

Since the garbage goes away, my understanding is that that is actually good progress!

Best of luck,
- Bo



Good score. I also have a Japanese 2001-8, which is still in storage in Tokyo unfortunately.

I can't really help to much with the fix, except to say that purchasing one of the ROM/RAM/Diagnostic boards would be hugely recommended (I believe there are/were two in existence)...But what you REALLY need to do first is get a dump of the Japanese character ROM. When I was fixing mine, the character ROM died before I could get a copy of it. There is NO dumps of this ROM in existence. See my page here about this:

http://www.neoncluster.com/projects-pet/pet-japchar.html

As you can see I made a best guess at what the ROM contains, but it was still just a guess.
I've been actively trying to track down an original Japanese Character ROM dump now for about 6 years, so in the words of Princess Leia...You're my only hope.

Phil

There's a guy I know in the UK who said he was willing to program some pin compatible chips with whatever I needed (for a fee), but seeing what Nama has said has told me that the morally right thing to do is to dump the character ROM. If I'm going to be doing that I may as well get my own EPROM programmer anyway, so what's a good model than supports both dumping and burning EPROMs?
 
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I think the CharGEN ROM is a 2316 or maybe a 9316.
A 2716 would be a good candidate as a replacement. Unfortunately I believe the 2716 EPROMs chip selects are opposite to the 2316's otherwise the pinouts are basically compatible.

http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~schepers/roms.html

Finding a programmer to read these may be tricky but there are adaptors available:

http://www.reactivemicro.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_35&products_id=92
http://www.go4retro.com/2011/10/25/23xx-adapter-in-limited-production/
http://www.dasarodesigns.com/product/eprom-programmer-universal-adapter/
 
I think the CharGEN ROM is a 2316 or maybe a 9316.
A 2716 would be a good candidate as a replacement. Unfortunately I believe the 2716 EPROMs chip selects are opposite to the 2316's otherwise the pinouts are basically compatible.

http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~schepers/roms.html

Finding a programmer to read these may be tricky but there are adaptors available:

http://www.reactivemicro.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_35&products_id=92
http://www.go4retro.com/2011/10/25/23xx-adapter-in-limited-production/
http://www.dasarodesigns.com/product/eprom-programmer-universal-adapter/

Thanks for the info, but I think I'm just going to send the character ROMs to my friend in the UK and also get him to program BASIC 4.0 and BASIC 2.0 onto some TMS2532 chips, which seem to be mostly pin compatible and fairly cheap. I'm also going to ask him to make some spare character ROMs on top of dumping the files and giving them to me.
 
Thanks for the info, but I think I'm just going to send the character ROMs to my friend in the UK and also get him to program BASIC 4.0 and BASIC 2.0 onto some TMS2532 chips, which seem to be mostly pin compatible and fairly cheap. I'm also going to ask him to make some spare character ROMs on top of dumping the files and giving them to me.

The 2532 EPROM will work for all ROMs except the Editor ROM and the Character ROM. Use 2716 for them. The Editor is only 2K so if you use a 4K 2532, it will step on the I/O address space.
 
Using a 4K EPROM shouldn't step on the I/O space - this is a function of the address decode logic for the EPROM socket - not the EPROM size itself.

It will not, however, be a simple EPROM change from 2K to 4K. The 4K device will have an extra address line which will have to be strapped to ground for correct operation.

Dave
 
The 2532 EPROM will work for all ROMs except the Editor ROM and the Character ROM. Use 2716 for them. The Editor is only 2K so if you use a 4K 2532, it will step on the I/O address space.

I'm having trouble figuring out which chips are what, because whenever I think I've found the correct information it's in some crazy schematic that I can't understand. Here's my board:

ZuVYpki.jpg


I removed the heatsinks to try to get a look at what the chips were, but the writing came off on all but 1 of them.
 
Using a 4K EPROM shouldn't step on the I/O space - this is a function of the address decode logic for the EPROM socket - not the EPROM size itself.
Dave, that is true only for the newer 'universal' boards i.e., 4032/8032. The older PETS need 2K Editor ROMs.
-Dave
 
Ahh, okay. So I can either:

1. Get the correct chips.
2. Use the 2532s but solder a pin/s to ground?

No, use a 2716 for for the D8 Editor socket.

It looks like you are using 5 ROMs so perhaps your PET may have been upgraded to BASIC 4? Or does the Japanese system use 5 ROMs? If it originally came with BASIC 2, (4 ROM configuration), then perhaps there may be a problem with using the Japanes Editor with BASIC 4. To be safe, I'd advise the BASIC 2 set if the Japanese editor is wanted. See Zimmers for the correct part numbers and files.
-Dave
 
No, use a 2716 for for the D8 Editor socket.

It looks like you are using 5 ROMs so perhaps your PET may have been upgraded to BASIC 4? Or does the Japanese system use 5 ROMs? If it originally came with BASIC 2, (4 ROM configuration), then perhaps there may be a problem with using the Japanes Editor with BASIC 4. To be safe, I'd advise the BASIC 2 set if the Japanese editor is wanted. See Zimmers for the correct part numbers and files.
-Dave

This is what I meant about things that I don't understand - what do you mean by "D8 Editor socket"? Which one is that? And could you link me to the appropriate information on Zimmers? I quite literally cannot navigate that website.
 
I believe the white IC at the top of the 5th column from the left is the character ROM.

Alright, and would you happen to know which chip size is needed for the character rom, eg. is it 2K, 4K, etc, because I'd like to use a fresh chip once I've backed it up.

On the chip it says:

Top Line: "MOS"
Middle Line: "901447-12"
Bottom Line: "0779"
 
I believe it's a 2316B, although please double check this as I can't be 100% sure.
A quick google search finds this:
PET Character Japanese, 901447-12, 2 KB, 2 KBytes, 2316B

You can get adaptors for more common EPROMs, so they look like 2316's to the host machine. Here is one:
http://www.go4retro.com/products/23xx-adapter/
and another
http://www.reactivemicro.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_35&products_id=92

Please note that I think Apple used the 2316B ROMs in their Apple II's, although I have a feeling that they were slightly different from the standard 2316's (can't recall how exactly). Something to look into...
 
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I believe it's a 2316B, although please double check this as I'm can't be 100% sure.
A quick google search finds this:
PET Character Japanese, 901447-12, 2 KB, 2 KBytes, 2316B

You can get adaptors for more common EPROMs, so they look like 2316's to the host machine. Here is one:
http://www.go4retro.com/products/23xx-adapter/
and another
http://www.reactivemicro.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_35&products_id=92

Please note that I think Apple used the 2316B ROMs in their Apple II's, although I have a feeling that they were slightly different from the standard 2316's (can't recall how exactly). Something to look into...

Alrighty then. Since I'm going to be backing up the current character ROM, do you know of a reader that can read 2316s? Or at least an adapter that allows them to be read on something like this?:

http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Univ...DBUwOIL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_
 
I found this: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-04-pet-rom-upgrades.htm

Which links to the page here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?23775-Bin-files-for-EPROM-burning!/page7

So if I buy this Willems programmer (http://www.amazon.com/PRG-055-MCUma...11856&sr=1-1&keywords=willem+eprom+programmer) and make the adapter, I should be able to program TMS2532s.

When following the instructions posted by Pet Rescue, am I supposed to make sure that the pins I'm soldering wires to do not go through the adapter itself to the pins below? Also, should I be able to read the 2316 character ROM the same way?
 
When following the instructions posted by Pet Rescue, am I supposed to make sure that the pins I'm soldering wires to do not go through the adapter itself to the pins below? Also, should I be able to read the 2316 character ROM the same way?

Note that you use a TWO stacked 24-pin IC sockets to make the cuts and jumpers on the two pins. Do not bend or solder the pins of the 6332 ROM. Keep it unaltered. I'll check into the 6316. You may just have to read it as a 2716 using the same adapter or perhaps no adapter will be needed.
 
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