• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

Low Level Format routine

B

bettablue

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
1,647
Location
Eugene, OR
We are still trying to get past the low level format on the 10 Meg full height Miniscscribe hard drive in the IBM 5161 expansion unit. Since the controller was swapped out, the drive is no longer recognized. While attempting to low level format a few days ago, the drive was taking for-ever to get through the process, finally after over 12 hours, we stopped the process because we knew it had failed. Ed has tried several routines, all failing.

Someone mentioned that the Western Digital Controller has it's own ROM? That seems all well and good, but I was thinking more on the lines of using Spinrite. I have two versions in my software library, but neither of those will work with the IBM 5150 as the memory requirements clearly describe a 286 processor or higher, something that can utilize more memory.

Can someone point me to where I can FTP or purchase a version for the IBM PC/XT?

Of course, if someone here has a better idea to get through this final stage in the systems setup, please let me know.

Thanks again.
 
You should be able to tell in the first 10 minutes or so if the procedure is working. No need to wait that long again.

IIRC, Spinrite will not format a new drive -- it only re-formats drives.

You can always plug the drive/controller into a 286/386 and try to format it there. Then, after a successful format you can install it into the PC, kinka like Plug'nPlay.

Or, you can use SpeedStor to LLF that drive in the PC. I have found it to be very reliable. But, I only do the format with it. I always used FDISK for partitioning 'cause SpeedStor seems to be a bit flakey in that area.
 
I just checked and I have Spinrite II v2.0 which works on my XT so it would work on your PC, if you were so inclined. However, as I mentioned above, it needs a drive with a partition on it before you can use it. But is a very valuable/useful tool for MFM drives as it will perform a non-destructife LLF on the drive. IMO, there is just *no* substitute for that service.

I also have SpeedStor v6.0.3 which works great on my XT as well (with the minor exception previously noted above).
 
bettablue said:
We are still trying to get past the low level format on the 10 Meg full height Miniscscribe hard drive in the IBM 5161 expansion unit. Since the controller was swapped out, the drive is no longer recognized. While attempting to low level format a few days ago, the drive was taking for-ever to get through the process, finally after over 12 hours, we stopped the process because we knew it had failed. Ed has tried several routines, all failing.
Click to expand...
So this is a continuation of the thread you started on June 13th, 2012, 03:14 AM

SpidersWeb suggested a data cable issue, which sounded to me exactly like a good probable cause. I've seen the 'slow LLF' issue myself and it was because the data cable was improperly connected. Was this possibility investigated?

What is the model of the WD controller?
 
Stone said:
You can always plug the drive/controller into a 286/386 and try to format it there. Then, after a successful format you can install it into the PC, kinka like Plug'nPlay.
Click to expand...
That won't work if the low level format (the pattern of ones and zeroes) laid down by the 286/386's controller differs to the low level format used by the WD controller.
 
modem7 said:
That won't work if the low level format (the pattern of ones and zeroes) laid down by the 286/386's controller differs to the low level format used by the WD controller.
Click to expand...
?????

You even quoted me where I said... 'drive/controller'. That means drive and controller. :)
 
Stone said:
I just checked and I have Spinrite II v2.0 which works on my XT so it would work on your PC, if you were so inclined. However, as I mentioned above, it needs a drive with a partition on it before you can use it. But is a very valuable/useful tool for MFM drives as it will perform a non-destructife LLF on the drive. IMO, there is just *no* substitute for that service.

I also have SpeedStor v6.0.3 which works great on my XT as well (with the minor exception previously noted above).
Click to expand...

Can you get Speedstor to me via email?

Also, modem7, yeah we swapped out the cable with another one and it did the same thing. I'm waiting for Ed to tell me which WS controller is in the system so we can try to access the ROM.

To be completely honest, this is one of those things I missed in the beginning of my home PC days. I have never low level formatted a drive before this one, so I don't know what to expect. Hopefully, by wither getting to the WDs ROM or by using Speedstor, we'll get started. We really want to finish this this weekend so we can move the system back home where it belongs.

I will say that is an awesome sound when you turn on the expansion unit and hear the two drives spinning up. With all that noise, you WOULD expect to see a brownout.
 
Gawd, this is turning into a book-length epic tale... let me contribute a page:

Are you using a single-drive or a dual-drive control cable?
If dual, does it have a twist or not?
If a twist, which wires are twisted?
If a dual-drive cable, which connector are you using, end or middle?
Are the cable stripes facing the same (correct) way at both ends?
What is the DS jumper on the drive set to?
Does the drive have a terminating resistor installed?
What is the model of the controller?
Which connector is the data cable connected to?
What are you using to LLF the drive?
 
I've been puzzling myself over this one, the WD controller should be able to see the Miniscribe drive, the debug g=c800:5 should take you into the controllers bios where you enter all the drive's data by hand. I'm not near any of my resources right now , so i can't tell properly if you want static configuration or dynamic, you want the one that allows you to enter all the data by hand, and it should format the drive, or drives. I suspect there may be a cable or jumpering issue in play hear. I would like to know how this turns out for you.
 
Last edited:
I can answer some of these questions because I made this cable...

Are you using a single-drive or a dual-drive control cable? dual
If dual, does it have a twist or not? yes
If a twist, which wires are twisted? 25-29
If a dual-drive cable, which connector are you using, end or middle? I marked the cable for drive 0 and drive 1.
Are the cable stripes facing the same (correct) way at both ends? They were when I made it... :)
What is the DS jumper on the drive set to?
Does the drive have a terminating resistor installed?
What is the model of the controller?
Which connector is the data cable connected to?
What are you using to LLF the drive?

I tested the cable with two drives in my XT after I made it.
 
Last edited:
Believe it or not, Ed and I finally got it figured out. Let me explain that Ed came by and took over my 5150 project for a short time while I was dealing with some very serious health concerns that almost caused my death. (yes, I'm still around! Thanks for the applause.) Now that that's over, we both started brainstorming the entire Low Level Formatting process and started to eliminate some of the variables.

Ed noticed that there were some pretty sharp contacts on the board next to the controller, the 8/16 LAN adapter... So, Ed moved the controller over an additional slot and reconnected everything. Viola! Everything worked.

Keep in mind that these were done after taking everyones advice. The original cable we were using is one I had requested. It seems that removing the connector and repositioning it, caused some of the wire traces inside the ribbon to break. Oh, well, lesson learned. We also attempted every one of the tools that were sent to both he and I. None of them would work until the controller was moved to the new slot away from the LAN adapter.

So nos both drives in the expansion unit are working. DOS is installed on the 10 Meg Miniscribe "C" drive and the Control Data "D" drive is currrntly empty.

Our next issue is that of getting the rest of the hardware in the expansion unit working properly. But to do that, we're bringing Alice back home. (For those of you asking; Alice is the name I've given to the entire system, including the 5150, the 5161 expansion unit and peripherals.) We still need to write an autoexec.bat and config.sys for some of the hardware like the AST Six Pack Plus' clock and calendar functionality, etc..

As of right now, Alice is booting from the "C" drive into DOS 3.3 with no errors.

At this point, I would also like to ask for a final favor from all of you. If you can provide the coding to include in the auto exec and config.sys for the hardware listed in my thread titled My IBM 5150 So Far, located in the following link, I would cincerely appreciate it. : http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?29718-My-IBM-5150-so-far

Thanks to you all my friends. This entire project has been an adventure that has lasted an entire year! Now that it is this close to being complete, I want to get it done before I have to go in for a possible liver transplant. Besides that, thee is another project going on in Linkedin that is utilizing vintage equipment to perform modern tasks. My system will be perfect for it.

Thanks again averyone! You're the best!
 
Good for you! Now that it's all finished and working, you should make a video of the whole setup. And especially get the sounds of the hard drives when you issue a DIR command.:)
 
Ed noticed that there were some pretty sharp contacts on the board next to the controller, the 8/16 LAN adapter... So, Ed moved the controller over an additional slot and reconnected everything. Viola! Everything worked.
Click to expand...
I love it! You just brought back memories of cutting the cardboard back off legal tablets to make an instant temporary insulator between circuit boards, usually at midnight at some customer site. :)
 
Just for you DLO, I'll do a video to your specs listed here in this thread. But I'm going to be adding a small touch.

I bought a new in box Dataguard 5000 power supply and spike protector through E-Bay for only $10.00 including free shipping! It has 4 push button power switches up front, and 5 outlets in back. One of the outlets is a constant on. All of the others are controlled by their own switches. So now my left handed body can power on the entire system without having to reach all the way to the lower right rear of the portable desk just to boot the thing. Trust me, it aint pretty; especially with my expansion unit setting on the bottom of my portable desk.

In the video, I'll be booting up to DOS, and yeah, I'll do a directory command, but I really don't think it will make any more noise than normal, unless the drives are full. And I'm not planning on filling both drives right away. I will however be adding directories for DOS Diagnostics and tools, Productivity software, and of course, Games. Eventually though, I will have the drives full. I will say, that the boot process sounds awesome! The twin drives spinning up almost sound like turbines. Like modem7 mentioned; you would expect to experience a brownout as the drives get up to speed.

In the meantime, I still need a good example of the autoexec.bat or config.sys for loading the date and time from the AST Six-Pack plus card. Which file do I need to edit, and what lines do I need to add?

Look for updates, I'll be posting more as I make progress on the final touches.

Thanks again everbody!

DOS lives on!! said:
Good for you! Now that it's all finished and working, you should make a video of the whole setup. And especially get the sounds of the hard drives when you issue a DIR command.:)
Click to expand...
 
Interesting. I never heard of that before we ran into it here. Was this that big of an issue back "in the day"?

Doug G said:
I love it! You just brought back memories of cutting the cardboard back off legal tablets to make an instant temporary insulator between circuit boards, usually at midnight at some customer site. :)
Click to expand...
 
Yes, it was an issue, particularly if the headers on the board were the type that stick straight up (perpendicular) to the board. Add a cable with strain relief stacked on and it's enough to push two boards together. Much better are those with the right-angle headers.

Back in the day when I was using a big Panasonic laser printer and a 20" Daisy Systems (Mitsiubishi) EGA monitor, I rigged a power strip with a relay that plugged into the monitor power socket on the PC. Did anyone ever make a commercial product like that--that would switch a heavy load using the PC BRS?
 
Your not going to hear the control data drive, it just kinda ziff-ziff-ziff-ziffs when it moves the heads, it's really quiet, the only time you hear it is on boot up. where it sounds pretty weird. ziffffff-zifff-zifff-ziff-zif-zif-zif-zif-zff-ffff is pretty much what it does, after that, all quiet.

DOS lives on!! said:
Good for you! Now that it's all finished and working, you should make a video of the whole setup. And especially get the sounds of the hard drives when you issue a DIR command.:)
Click to expand...
 
Chuck(G) said:
... Did anyone ever make a commercial product like that--that would switch a heavy load using the PC BRS?
Click to expand...
Well, of course for light loads you just used an adapter and plugged a power bar into the auxiliary power socket (some ATX supplies even still had that connector).

Then there are power bars that automatically turn on power to the auxiliary sockets when they sense current being drawn on the main socket as the computer powers up (or turn on power to the computer etc. when you turn on the monitor); had to go on a service call once when a friend who thought she'd just bought an ordinary power bar plugged a lamp into the master socket and wondered why her computer only worked at night... ;-)

But the closest I've seen to what you're talking about is something called an ecopad by Pine which is an external box with its own AC plug and three receptacles (one for a monitor), controlled by opto-isolated solid state switches driven by the PC's 12V power via a reverse gender DA15HD connector and internal adapter cable to connect to certain PINE motherboards (or just the 12V line).

Waddya know; we've been here before:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcf...-to-do-and-what-not-to-do&p=131048#post131048
 
Last edited:
Hmm, I don't recall reading that one before. Some erroneous information, but it's too late to correct.

I suspect the same solution also exists for rackmount power strips--some of them can get to be pretty fancy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top