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New Lisa! Restortion tips needed.

If you were a tad closer I could probably supply you with spare components to help you track down what is still faulty.
 
NeXT said:
If you were a tad closer I could probably supply you with spare components to help you track down what is still faulty.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the thought. I haven't quite given up yet, and there is one other thing I can attempt. It's pushing the boundaries of my skill set though but what have I got to lose? Stay tuned.. :)

In the meantime, I've written up the restoration project for the Lisa 2/10 (Macintosh XL). For anyone interested, it's here:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-03-05-rejuvenating-a-lisa2-10.htm

Cheers

Tez
 
Well, I've hit the same error 82 problem with my Lisa. I bought a second widget on ebay which at first wasn't detected. I found that the piggyback EPROM on the controller board was bad, so I burned a new one, and now the drive is detected, but it behaves exactly the same way as the other one.

Both drives spin up, the head brake releases, and then the head does one full seek, but that's about it. The Lisa gives me error 82, and the option to retry booting. Each boot attempt results in the same single head seek.

I would love to try a low level format, but it seems that the few people who had the tools and knowledge were determined to keep it a secret. Now that there's no commercial value to formatting Lisa drives, I suspect the knowledge and tools may be lost forever. If anyone knows anything about low level formatting a widget drive, please contact me. If I ever get the needed tools (probably just a low level formatting program, and probably a special ROM for the widget and/or Lisa) I promise to share them with anyone who needs them at no cost. I can make copies of any special ROMs, or software available if I can find them.

The only concrete clue I've found is in a 1990 Lisa repair manual published by Sun remarketing. They claimed to be able to do a low level format using a "special machine". Presumably, that special machine is a Lisa, or Apple II, or III with the right software and interface.

If nothing else, attempting a low level format would probably point me in the right direction on repairing the drives. As long as the disks and heads are still good, everything else should be repairable.
 
Yes, although the X/ProFile emulator has replaced it I'm sure all my widget needs is a low-level format.

But how?

Tez
 
tezza said:
Yes, although the X/ProFile emulator has replaced it I'm sure all my widget needs is a low-level format.

But how?

Tez
Click to expand...

A second ebay Widget arrived today. This one was advertized as not spinning up, but otherwise as-is. After a few spins of the motor by hand, it managed to get up to speed, and the Lisa booted to Macworks plus! It's VERY noisy, but it works. Ironically, it's the oldest of my 3 widgets, and also appears to have been used the most (based on the amount of dust around the motor, and how loud the bearings are.

At least I know that my Lisa is working, and that it is possible for a widget to still work after all these years.

Back to low level formatting, I just had a thought. Doesn't the widget use a fairly standard parallel interface? I wonder if it could be low level formatted using a PC parallel port, and special software? Of course, any attempt to write a low level formatting program would require detailed information on the widget. It may be as simple as activating a low level format routine built into the widget's ROM, or it may be hopelessly complex.
 
Found this on Low-level formatting a Widget hard drive:
> Hello David,
> many Thanks for your help!
>
> I'm very interested in the internal Profile materials- how can I get it from
> you ?
> By the way: Is it ok to copy the LLF EPROMs for everyone who needs it to
> repair his Profile hard disk?
> I think that Apple's copyrights for the Profile (and Widget?) ended in 1998-
> there shouldn't be any legal problems- do you know more about this problem?
>
>>
>> The same applies also to the
>> Widget drive in the Lisa.
>
> No, this is not true: You need a modified Lisa with an Apple internal LLF
> utility to perform a Low Level Format.
> I know an Apple technician who has repaired my widget and performed a LLF.
> He won't give away his knowledge or the utility software.
Click to expand...
http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com/msg00593.html

So it seems it is possible to LLF a Widget drive but only using a special Lisa and special software, both of which are going to be extremely rare or non-existant now.
 
I had seen that post while I was searching for information. I know it was a few years ago, but it's frustrating that possibly the only person with the tools we need chose greed over preservation. How much money could there have been in Widget formatting, even back then?

It might not be as hopeless as it sounds. The modified Lisa could be as simple as a special disk controller ROM, and the software could be as simple as a boot floppy. If any of this still exists, it should be coped and archived before it's too late.

Alternately, using a PC to duplicate the functionality of this special Lisa and software should be possible for someone with some programming skills. The hard part is finding out what to tell the drive to do.

Has anyone taken apart a Widget drive? I would be curious to see what's inside without destroying a drive that I might be able to reformat someday. Is there any way to get to the bearing?
 
I was always under the assumption that a Widget drive was the HDA of a Seagate ST-506 or ST-412 or compatible drive and then fitted with Apple's specialty Widget boards.

I also assume you read this from the Lisa FAQ:
If using the OS installer to re-initialize/format the drive fails, the first level of service to address these issues is to do a low-level format. Unfortunately, in order to do this, you'll need an Apple /// computer with a ProFile interface card, the special low-level format ROM for the ProFile's Z8 processor, and the Apple /// ProFile formatting software to issue the commands. ProFile hard drives configured for normal operation do not have the firmware necessary to do low-level formats.

The technique, hardware, and software required to perform a low-level format of a Widget hard drive is unknown.
Click to expand...
 
There's some interesting information here:

http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/idefile.htm

Table 1 lists the drive commands for the Profile. Note the "format unit" command. Assuming the Widget's commands are the same, I wonder if it would be as simple as issuing the format unit command, or if more interaction is required to complete a low level format?

I wonder if the Widget also requires a special firmware chip? It kind of makes sense to have a safety against accidentally formatting the drive with one wrong command.

His FAQ has a section on low level formatting the Profile. He claims to have the ROM and software, but he's unwilling to share it. Ha also claims to know nothing about formatting a Widget.
 
I just saw that someone is selling the Profile low level format ROM and software on ebay. Finding an Apple III is the hard part there.
 
NeXT said:
FYI, the listing is here and a much more complete kit with cable and controller is here.
Click to expand...

You posted the same link twice. It's good to see that some of these tools are getting out there. Hopefully the Widget will be next.

I skimmed this document last night:

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple ...roFile/Documentation/Apple ProFile Repair.pdf

It has lost of very detailed information on the Profile, including things like how to evaluate the signal coming from the heads. I compared the Profile schematics to the Widget, and I think I've found the head amp test points on the Widget. I'm going to take a look at the signals on my working and no working drives to see if there's an obvious problem.
 
I did some quick measurements over lunch, and got some interesting results. One bad widget has a problem with the read/write board. There's absolutely nothing on the head amp test point. Swapping a known good read/write board in doesn't make it work (although it restores the head signal). I'm not sure if you can swap read/write boards without a low level format, so I will repair the original board and try again. I hope the read/write board didn't damage the low level format when it failed.

The other bad drive (the one that originally came with my Lisa) has a good looking signal sometimes, and noise at other times on the head test point. I compared it to the head select signal, and it's definitely one head that isn't picking up a good signal. A quick resistance check revealed an open head coil. Each head has a center tapped coil, and half of head 0 is open. It's not the ribbon cable, so I guess I have my chance to look inside the HDA... It's a shame because it's by far my quietest drive.
 
Andy, this is interesting.

Are you able to elaborate? Can you post a photo showing exactly where these test points are on the widget and what settings you used to test with each of them (I assume you used a scope?).

I'd like to check my widget there and see what its saying..

Tez
 
The test points are on the lower of the two boards on top of the drive. They are TP1, and TP2 (it's a differential signal, and both should look the same). I was getting a sinusoidal waveform of about 4v p-p on the good drive. The bad drive is similar, so I will have to go back and do another comparison. I was seeing some gaps in the signal on the bad one, but I need to double check the good one to see if it's normal. The one with the bad head had a very weak and noisy signal when it was on head 0.

I cracked open the one with the bad head hoping to find a bad solder connection, or something, but it was the head itself that had failed. I managed to probe the wires right at the head tip, but the head itself was open circuit. It's a shame, but if the hard drive hadn't failed, I probably wouldn't have been able to rescue it. It sat on the shelf of a University's computer repair shop for many years before I bought it when they closed the shop.

I have been taking pictures, and I will post them later.
 
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tezza said:
Just an update re the non-working 400k drive for the second Lisa.

Got the parts --> installed the parts ---> Symptom still persists.

It looks like I might have to be content with just one fully working Lisa. Yet having TWO working Lisas is just a 400k drive away.

So near yet so far *sigh*

Tez
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Yay! Just an update. I now a working floppy drive for my second Lisa thanks to John Woodall, maker of the X\Profile emulator. John read about my plight and sent me three spare 400k drives he had for the cost of shipping only!

THANK YOU John.

I now have a working Lisa 2 and a working Lisa 2/10. Still a few minor things to do. I want to get some rubber feet for the machines and the keys on one of the keyboards are a kind of olive colour. A candidate for deyellowing I think.

Tez
 
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