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PDP-11/RX02 Boot Bules

Hi Ray,

I'm a little confused by some of your descriptions of switch settings, so please bear with me. I'm working from documentation here...

Please try again with a single 8044-D on the bus, all S1 switches [S1-1 through S1-5] "ON". [I'm unclear if this will be "up or down" although my drawings show them left-right?]
Using ODT, verify RAM is present from address 000000 to 177777o. [200000 should be empty]

If you're good to there, set the second 8044-D all S1 switches ON, except S1-2 [OFF]
Install the card and again using ODT verify memory 200000o - 377777o has been added. [Re-check 0-177777o if you like]

How many empty 40-pin sockets are on your 8186? [the two middle ones hopefully?]

...And YES... my ROMs compare with the ones at your links gslick. They are the same as my MXV11-B2 set.
 
So many switches, so little knowledge.

So many switches, so little knowledge.

On my 8186 I only have the MMU and CPU, the two middle sockets are vacant, also have a second 11/23 system has a 8186 with the MMU, FPU and CPU in a little two row card cage with a small power supply that came out of a CNC system and have one of the 8044DK stuffed in that. Have tried the 8029 in the little system and get the same results. The four little switches on the first 8044 are all set open up, the second 8044 has switch one down and the other three up, third 8044 is switch two down and 1,3 and 4 up and fourth is 1 and 2 down and 3 and 4 up. I am assuming that if you do not have the memory correctly set you cannot write to addresses like 1000, 1002, 1004 and so on and know that if I set the switches in the other directions with one board only, set all down I cannot run simple ODT code from the con and with just one board set all open I can enter simple programs from the con and run them all day long. Did just buy a RSX-11 disks on the bay so will see what they do when I get them.
Ray F
 
This is one of the things that I'm not getting... there should be 5 switches in that pack?? [Please check the photo below... maybe they installed a 4 position switch in 5 position artwork?]

The ON/OFF state of those "rocker" switch packs can be misleading to read. Sometimes they don't even have writing on em, and I have to resort to an ohm meter.

Is this like yours? [note this one is set to 200000o-377777o]
IMG_2889.JPG


Regardless if they've inverted the switch meaning somehow, If you have interrogatable memory responding to address 1000o that's good... we need to see where it stops working [the upper boundary] That confirms we're getting the memory to work, and it's where we want it. Multiple cards must be contiguously addressed. With two cards, you should have addressable memory from 0-377777o.

You may very well get through this "jumpermania" to discover there is another road block. [RX01 drives on an RX02 only controller] Even if you had all known good hardware, there are still lots of ways things could "run off the tracks."

RSX... hmmm... is this the auction? I'm not sure what you're going to get there.
 
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If the RX01 on RLV12 controller is the issue, then Ray, you can at least run XXDP and RT-11 off an emulated TU58 that you can connect to your SLU card (not the console, but to the port at 176500 (776500)).

See Will's TU58 emulator for ms-dos: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm . This is exactly what I use on my bench with XXDP TU58 images. It can also be used to make RT-11 bootable images, which I have done.

When troubled with "jumpermania", the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook is your friend!

Lou
 
Memory Mysteries

Memory Mysteries

You sir are a genius! I did not think much of your speculation of memory problems but when I discovered that I was wrong and there are indeed five switches on each memory board instead of the four I thought were their I decided to do what you said. I set all the boards I have to all on assuming this will set each board to the low address and the first board I tried did what I was getting all along, the second board dumped me directly into ODT and would not run the loader but the third board worked and loaded the floppy at DY0 and then discovered that I can also load the system from the DL0 RL-01 drive and now have way more operating system than I know what to do with. So both my RL and RX drive are now working, just have to learn how to work in the RT-11 environment. So now I only have two good memory boards instead of four but I have what appears to be a working PDP-11/23
 
"I love it when a plan comes together..."

I'm glad you're getting somewhere. So now you have a 64KW [128KB] system, with two MSVs, one has S1 all on, and the second only S1-2 off?

Please confirm. And there's memory from 0-377777o?

You can stop here if you wish, but if I were you, I'd scrutinize the "non-working boards" to see if there are any other differences between those and the working ones.

There are several other jumpers which may have made sense in some other configuration, but not in yours. Please, if you don't want to do it - take good photos of each and I'll do it for you. [be sure to include the working ones]

Another thing to try... sometimes after standing around for years, the switches get funky. Take one of the "bad" boards and cycle all the switches a couple times. Then set them correctly and re-test. I'm betting it may work. If not, then tag the board as bad and we'll have the option of doing something with it later.

So you have bootable RL media and your repair worked? HOW cool is THAT!

Give yourself a pat on the back grasshopper... and have a cold one on me.

One last recommendation - You might read the documentation for the BDV to understand it throughly. From what I recall, there is a way to set it's switches to perform memory tests on powerup. Had we done this in the beginning, it might have saved some time - who knows. Enabling it will give you some confidence that everything is ok every time you power it up. [BE SURE TO WRITE DOWN THE WAY IT IS NOW, BEFORE PLAYING WITH ANYTHING]
 
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Cards

Cards

pictures of the two failed cards, also a picture of the new stack config. KDF-11 first, SLU, 8029 RX02 , RLV two card set couple open slots thean 9400 jump to second frame with two 8044, lots of open slots and the BDV on the bottom. also a picture of the system as it looks now.
 

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I'm not ignoring your post... my main machine's browser won't work on this forum well enough to open those attachments, so I need to use another. [Maybe later this evening] to begin looking for errant board settings.

I now see from your photos that I've been under the misunderstanding that you had an RX01 drive connected to the RXV21, when actually you had RX01 MEDIA inserted in your RX02 DRIVE. This combination works fine... obviously from your experience.

I've now been able to download those attachments, but unfortunately they're not of sufficient resolution for me to check them as I intended. I guess we'll have to re-visit this at some point when / if you want to fix them.

The other shots of your system's configuration look great. [yeah... that's where I'd put the console serial interface]

Best of luck with it. I guess we can check this one off as "mission accomplished".
 
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Ray,

That's a nice looking system there Ray! I checked it out on your web page.

The 11/03 backplane in your pictures should be an H9273, AKA BA11-N but do check for sure. The Q-bus in these should run down the left slots (AB slots) while the CD slots should only be occupied by the quad height cards. The Qbus is carried only on the AB slots. The CD slots are ONLY used for connecting the two RLV11 boards together in this backplane. So, from your pictures, you got that right. The W2 and W3 should be open in the expansion backplane if I remember right.

Everything else looks really good. You're really close here.

The RXV21 controller is for the RX02. It may not be happy with being connected to an RX01. The "right" controller is an RXV11. (as an aside however, an RX02 does work with an RXV11 when the S1/S2 switches are set properly in the RX02 - I've done it with a unibus RX11) So, this might be part of your problem.
Công ty nội thât hàng đầu noi that fami là đối tác của công ty noi that 190

The CSR for RXV21 is 777170 in your Q18 11/23 setup. You don't need to write programs to examine and deposit into memory or the I/O space at the top of memory. You can get to ODT by halting your processor. In ODT you get the @ sign prompt. If you see @ then type 777170/ it will display the contents of the RXV11 CSR (control and status register). If you then type six octal digits, then carriage return, your six digits will be deposited into that register. Works the same for memory locations. 777172 is the data buffer register, which has multiple personalities depending on the command that was sent in the CSR. You can read all about this in the dec RX manuals (did you find bitsavers.org yet?)

Oh and yeah this is a 16 bit machine, but memory is arranged in 8 bit bytes. Each byte has an address, but ODT works with the 16 bit words. So really, the CSR is 777170 and 777171, but 777170/ will show you the whole 16 bit word. 16 bits is 6 octal digits, but the 2 most significant bits of the most significan octal digit are not used. So I think you meant that 6 digits is 18 bits, but only 16 are used. For memory addresses however, in your machine, all 18 bits will be used. (An 11/23+ that can address 22 bits of memory space needs 8 octal digits) I guess this use of octal alwalys made sense when your machines were 18, 12, and 36 bits. Of course the 11 had to break the mold.

The RX02 on powerup, will look for an installed disk by looking at track zero. On a boot, it will look at track zero sector zero for the secondary loader. It may not move out farther than that.... But how did you take the head assembly out of the drive? I am afraid you will need an alignment, and for that you will need XXDP...

By now you have probably also read about XXDP, the diagnostic monitor system. There are diagnostics for everything and they are invaluable. Unfortunately, not all of the code listings are available (or some lucky people have fiche sets, which I do not) so when the diagnostic hangs, you still have some homework to do. On the bench system, I run XXDP on an emulated TU58 drive. I make bootable XXDP TU58 images for whatever controller I am repairing. So currently, I have an image with all the RX diagnostics. There is a diagnostic that will allow you to position the head over a specific track, although not directly. It at least needs to find track zero first. You can find track zero with your scope on the head amplifier output (trigger on the sector index pulse) as you load the head by hand and rotate the head motor, then you have to get the track zero sensor aligned right. Basically if you ever aligned the heads on an SA800 you will have an idea of what to do.

A real analog alignment disk is nice, but you might be able to get it to work good enough with a real dec RX01K floppy. Dec RX01Ks were pre-formatted by dec and *should* have reliable track locations. I have done this.

Your RL cable work looks impressive. I have thought about replacing those latched connectors with ribbon cable when I eventually run out of the right cables. Do you have RL packs and does the drive come ready with no faults when you spin one up?

RSX11M+, yes, I am that Lou from alt.sys.pdp11. As for your RM03, I never worked with one, however Lou Sr. (my father) probably did. Since RM03 is a massbus drive, he would have seen them on smaller decsystem 20s. You have an RM11? When you start working on your RK05s I am sure we will be able to help each other out.

Lou - N2MIY

I completely agree with this!
 
More holes in the registers then binary's to stick in them!

More holes in the registers then binary's to stick in them!

I have a RX02 drive (DY) not a RX01, thanks for the information. So the clunk sound I hear when the drives cycle after power on or reset is them trying to find track 0? Will start looking into alignment and see what I can do, drive zero works somewhat and I can load rt11 from it and read the directory but my drive 1 is not working yet. May be that far out of alignment. The RL-01 drive will load up and run and that’s where I usually load the operating system but still have some issues working with the system. Loading RT11 from the RL drive I can read the directory, use the help files and do things like format the floppy in DY0, but yet have not been able to copy anything from the RL (DL0) to the RX (DY0) drive. When I try COPY/BOOT/ DL0 RT11FB.SYS the system prompts me for a destination so I enter DY0 but than usually get some sort of error and it does not transfer. Not cretin if I have another problem or am not using COPY correctly. Will try looking at the register but still not getting the whole transferring from that octal to binary and all the documentation showing more slots in the registers than the binary number I have. Working on antique computers is like being blindfolded in a dark room with no lights on! Every now and then I get a glimpse of something but that always leads to more questions.
Ray F
 
Ok Ray, you need RT-11 help, which I cannot provide. I'm sure Lou or somebody else can help you with this.

I can say - you need to download XXDP and either copy it to a free RL pack, or run it from an emulated TU58. XXDP has all the diagnostics you need to troubleshoot and verify the operation of any of your drives and all your other hardware. [MSVs too]

Learn XXDP next, my friend.
 
What is success?

What is success?

I put together a short video and it’s on youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHwtabLzm40
The title if that dont work is"PDP-11/23 2011" Sorry about the stability, its hard to hold a camera and type at the same time, also RT-11 a lot harder then DOS, way easier working on hardware then trying to build backup system disk, ASSIGN DY0: VOL://DK and all that kind of weird stuff. Still cant copy a file from one drive to another!
 
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