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Random find: computer system with pdp 11/23 cpu

Yep, that answered my queston about the CSR and base address, thanks.

I'll peel off the 11B label and see what it says when I get home from work. My guess is it'll be like the others and will have 44B etched or printed on the board.

I don't know off the top of my head what the RAM chips are on the spare boards I have. I think the IBM video card does have 64K chips, while the others are 256K. Each board has at least the same amount as this board has, so quantity shouldn't be an issue.

As far as test equipment goes: I have a multimeter and an o-scope.
 
If you have an oscilloscope, and know how to use it - we could be in business.

Can you describe it? Triggered, 100mhz or higher, 2ch, 4ch, storage, digital, analog?

The only problem is going to be access. I have DEC extender cards, so I can work on DUAL, QUAD and HEX modules while in a chassis. You'd have to disassemble your unit to get to the card, although I think by re-arranging - it could be done.
 
I should've pointed this out in my first post: I do have some knowledge with electronics and have a computer engineering degree. I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means since I still need more experience, but I have repaired arcade and pinball machines (mostly monitors and CPU boards out of them) and have programmed microcontrollers and FPGAs. So when it comes to testing/repairing/basic understanding it shouldn't be a problem, I just didn't know anything about this type of system. Heck, my first computer came with Win95!

Many thanks to those offering information and offering to repair the boards (I should have the right equipment and would rather do it myself to learn more about the system). I know my method of going in "guns-a-blazing" doesn't sound very professional, but that's more of a habit that I need to work on.

Oscope is an HP 54602A digital oscilloscope - 150 MHz with 4 Channels. I've used it only a couple of times since I bought it, but have used a very similar model before.

Guess what was under the label on the Q-RAM board? That's right, 44B printed right on the board! Now all we need is a manual...

Looking at the case, it should come apart rather easy and I should have access to the boards and possibly the underside of the backplane.

I also tried it with only the CPU (in J1), RAM (in J2), and the serial card (in J3) but still got the same problem. For some reason Bit 6 in the data keeps being set to either 0 or 1 regardless of what data I put in.
 
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BRAVO - another DIY guy!

That's a decent scope for our purposes. See if you can get the card cage out of there. You may need to remove the PS too or extend the cables.


On the "Professionalism" - I'm just trying to save you the "experience" of turning a nice board set into a pile of junk with 2 seconds of misplaced enthusiasm. I've seen it too many times. NMOS is not as "immune" as later technologies to mistakes. That said, it's your option and your risk. Go for it!

You'll need to acquire some DIP CLIPS. An assortment of sizes - 14, 16, 20 will help with this job - more if you plan to continue this hobby.

44B - I suspected. There's a dirty little secret in Air Force procurement circles - once they approve "hardware", it's a big deal to revise it. Most manufacturers get around this by simply re-labeling new versions in the nomenclature of the old "approved" ones. This practice may be behind this to a degree.

It indeed would be nice to have a schematic for this board [a 44B]. I've been looking in all the unusual ways that have worked for me in the past. One of my favorite ones was to follow google links to surplus DEC parts houses. Some of them used to have downloadable copies of the documentation sets for these products, as it was customary to include them in the past. Unfortunately, there seems to have been a change in the time-space-continuum recently - all the links to these documents have silently disappeared from Google results and from these vendor sites. [Foreshocks of SOPA and PIPA?]

However, in the absence of this documentation, we can proceed anyway. Troubleshooting without a schematic is a bit of an art form, bordering on "black magic" at times, to it's not exactly easy.

Begin by making yourself a good, comfortable place to work [seated]. Provide plenty of table space. Make it a spot where it can be left setup between sessions. [away from curious hands and paws] Gather your equipment around you. When you have the cage sufficiently accessible - you're ready to begin.

Prepare to take copious notes. [I make "Project Notebooks" in loose leaf binders] Print out part outline sheets [I use photoshop to make these] with ruled and labeled fields. If possible - include device designations. Leave plenty of room for hand-written scribbling. If I were you, I'd figure out a way to label individual RAM ICs so I know where they started out once they're pulled from sockets. Maybe you can mark em as we pull em, or maybe a sorting bin? [there's only 36 after all]

In the meantime, I'll try to work out some testing software to exercise the individual chips. It's not ideal using ODT for this, but unless we have some target system memory that WORKS, we can't do it the better way of running a program on the target CPU from memory.

Lou will have a lot of good advice - he's got this RAM repair gig down pat. I tend to overdo it and prepare for the long haul.
 
I am sitting here waiting to get on a plane, and that automated brute force ODT memory exerciser sounds like a useful tool. Deposit, examine, deposit, examine, increment address, repeat.... Let it run overnight, and map all the bad bits.

I still like the 11/23+ memory test that comes with its roms (I use that most of the time.)

I love my logic analyzer for repairing memories. If anyone is offered one for free, they should always grab it!

Yes, the print set for this memory will help enormously. If worst comes to worst, the scheme can be sketched from an examination of the traces on the board. Alternately, individual chips can be pulled and a few deposits and examines should tell which bits are gone. Being able to interact with the memory makes life a lot easier. The most painful memory repairs I have done are on decmates, where you have to watch the checkerboard self test run with the logic analyzer and see where (what address) it stops at, then watch the data read from that address to see which bit is sick.

As for data that has disappeared from the internet, try the "Wayback Machine". I used it recently to get data from the TEAC website from a capture 10 years ago to get data on the HF-235 SCSI 3-1/2" floppy drive (no longer made).

It's funny, I keep 3-ring binder project notebooks also. My wife is annoyed though that I have about half filled an Ikea bookcase in the family room with them.

Lou
 
By now you're on that plane... have a good flight and stay safe.


  • Bad location MAPPER - ok - got that. What else? How would/should that output look?
  • I was thinking along the lines of a "Chip Identifier"
  • Logic Analyzer - Love mine hp-54645D - built-in 2-ch storage scope and 16 digital channels. I have two older HP 48bit units for the really nasty stuff. But he doesn't have one, so I need to keep "Storage Scope" techniques in mind. It really should be enough if we can co-ordinate it with ODT manipulation from the CPU side.
  • I use Waybackmachine all the time, but you have to have a site URL to really get anywhere. Do you have any suggestions?
  • We could swap some war stories on the topic of Documentation Notes and floorspace... When we bought this house, I insisted on a full basement and separate garage. The basement is ALL MINE. [so is the Garage] I have no less than 10 bookcases full of collected docs. [6ft high or more - 48" wide each] More than half of it is Computer / DEC related. Problem is, it's not enough! LOL
  • On the "Notes" topic - SEgamer you might be tempted to skip this. Don't. You may end up going through this again at some point, and having a record of what you discover about the board this time, will be immense help - not to mention possibly helping others if you share them.
  • Lou - Care to tell us more about the 11/23 ROM memory test method you use? Might they be in his ROM set? If we've correctly identified the two boot devices [on his SMS "LSI" card] could pull these and put in a memory test set?

Again - stay safe. I'll begin writing up a description of how a bad location mapper would work and look. This is gonna come up again.
 
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Just to save others some time... "Clearpoint.com" was the URL for this company. The last WaybackMachine crawl of it was November 2003. In April of 2004 it was gone, and the URL purchased by a seemingly unrelated Consulting firm.

There were no links to "support Pages" or an ftp server in the history back to first capture in 1998. The only mention of products for DEC were the ones current at that time of the crawls, none from the period of the 80's we're interested in.

I'll keep looking elsewhere.

Update:

Although it has been found in google links that DATARAM assumed support for Clearpoint memory boards, I see no evidence of it on DATARAM's old web pages at the WabackMachine. DATARAM "Support" links only contain their products, and datasheet downloads usually don't work.
 
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  • Lou - Care to tell us more about the 11/23 ROM memory test method you use? Might they be in his ROM set? If we've correctly identified the two boot devices [on his SMS "LSI" card] could pull these and put in a memory test set?

The quad wide M8189 KDF11-B 11/23+ contains BDV11 compatible ROM/EPROM sockets. You can install (2x) 2KB, 4KB, or 8KB ROMs/EPROMs. They are mapped into a 512-byte window from 17773000-17773777 through a Page Control Register.

If you have the (2x) 8KB KDF11B-BH (23-380E4 / 23-381E4) firmware installed it will do either a short memory test or a long memory test on power up.

-Glen
 
I don't think his BOOT ROM hardware could be paged. Do these memory tests require more than one 512 byte page? In other words - can we copy or convert the test to a non-paged environment?

Might I have sources to those ROMS to look for myself?
 
I don't think his BOOT ROM hardware could be paged. Do these memory tests require more than one 512 byte page? In other words - can we copy or convert the test to a non-paged environment?

Might I have sources to those ROMS to look for myself?

I don't know if anyone has the source code for the 11/23+ firmware. The firmware binary images I installed on my M8189 came from here:

http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/
 
Waiting for the next plane on the next and final leg... Yes, Glen, that is exactly what I was referring to. It might be a bit of work to either steal the memory test from the 380/381 roms OR write an new one and burn roms for the card in the OP's machine (unless somehow that board, like an 11/23+, has BDV11-compatible rom sockets). I am lazy, so I really like the automated ODT exerciser.

By the way, the 380/381 images can be split up and used on a BDV11. One of these days when I am really bored, I will see if they can be put on an MRV11-C.

Back to the problem at hand... So when the exerciser locates the bad word, I would loop it doing reads and writes alternating all 1s and all 0s. With only a scope, I'd scope all the 4164 write enable lines (low true, pin 3) to identify which chips contain that word. Then I'd look at the data outs (pin 14) for those chips to see which one doesn't toggle.

Lou
 
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Nice to have you back in the States. (?)

Can you guide me to where I'd look for the sources to those Boot Roms? I'd like to see if the RAM test can be ported to an "unpaged" ROM set.

While the ODT approach has many advantages, it can't be very fast as an exerciser or signal generator. The option of a ROM set may not be essential this time, but may in the future.
 
Heh, no. Still in Tokyo. You should be asleep!

I was studying the earlier photo of the board.... This looks like a clone of an M8059 MSV11-L.

I've never seen the sources for dec's boot roms. They could be disassembled though.

Lou
 
Think the sources are on Fiche?

M8059 clone? the same thought crossed my mind. Wonder how deep the similarity goes?

Tokyo - you got a haul yet. Coming via Honolulu? It was my favorite stopover.
 
Fortunately (or not) this is direct to Kennedy.

One would think that some fiche somewhere would have the contents of those roms. If they ever turn up, I have another thing I would like to do with the 380/381 roms. I would like to add another bootstrap for a second MSCP controller at a different CSR. That way one could choose to boot from a KDA50 connected bootable drive OR a RQDXn connected bootable drive from the interactive boot menu.

I started looking at the MSV11-L print set after I sent the last message. That clearpoint memory has a lot more sockets than an M8059 has positions for dram dips. I can't read what is stamped on the packages in the picture the OP posted....

As I sit here, it kills me to think about how I could pop that memory in my test fixture and find that bad bit in minutes: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/album.php?albumid=2&attachmentid=7537 . This and my card extenders make working on boards a pleasure.

Lou
 
LOL - yeah... but it's his fun to have.

I'd have been dead working on the '70 without those extenders, that's for certain.

...just did a quick review of all the MSV11 series, and none has a layout really like this Clearpoint board. I must say, it really does "look" familiar, but we never used any non-DEC memories, so I don't know where I'd have seen it. I'm thinking I'm just mistaken.

I don't like JFK much. You couldn't get into Newark? Maybe that's not easier for you.

I just need a little coaching on where to begin a search of the Fiches. It's a worthy task.

Have a good nap on the plane.
 
I wish I knew about those DIP clips before because then I would have one in every shape and size by now!

I'll try to get the case disassembled today, if not then it will be tomorrow at the latest.

I also found a board that has 64k chips on it (HY5164-15), here's the datasheet for them: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/HY5164S-15-datasheet.html
And the datasheet for the ones (M5K4164ANP-12) on the Q-RAM board: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/M5K4164ANP-12-datasheet.html#

They appear to be the same except the HYs are CMOS and have different max access and min cycle times. It's been awhile since I looked at how they differ, but replacing NMOS with CMOS chips should be fine right?
 
I hope that I'm not throwing a spanner in the works here,

I have two pages in a manual provided by my previous employer covering the Clearpoint Q-RAM 44B. I don't have a scanner to scan them in, I'll look into that! According to the two pages the 44B comes in a 1 MB and 2 MB version not 256 K. So I suspect that you may have an 11B (Perhaps the diference between the two are the type and amount of DRAM chips used?). Anyway I'll list the jumpers,

Jumpers:- 0 = off, or jumper to right, 1 = on or jumper to left

Jumpers in the middle go up from the PCB edge connectors from J1 to J 13 and on the right jumpers go from J14 to J16 (14 to 16 are the battery backup or just + 5v system, for 5v should be out{not sure if this means off or out}, on, on)

J13, 18 bit addressing = on, 22 bit addressing = off



CSR 772100 or 17772100 J10=0, J11=0, J12=0 ( I can list different CSR's if you need them)



Starting address J4 J3 J2 J1
(Kbyte)

0 0 0 0 0
1024 0 1 0 0
2048 1 0 0 0
3072 1 1 0 0

Jumper J17 on certain models can be turned off floating point compatibility, System without FP J17 = on.
 
... According to the two pages the 44B comes in a 1 MB and 2 MB version not 256 K...

Thanks - The Jumper settings you list help a little. I was hoping you might be able to post it all. I think the manual you encountered is for a later stuffing of this same board.

Just for clarity's sake...

This one has 36 - M5K4164ANP DRAM (64k-bit x 1) chips. That's two banks of 18 bit words (16+2 parity) 64kw deep each for a total of 128KW (256KB) as stuffed. This corresponds to the "Q-18" BUS maximum.

Based on your documentation is it clear that larger DRAM chips are possible in this same raw board, perhaps with different jumpering and maybe other parts.

The maximum configuration of this board and these chips (64k-bit x 1) would be 72 chips @ 256KW (512KB). This would require a Q-22 BUS and compatible cards.

If stuffed with 256K bit chips it could hold up to 2MB, as your documentation suggests.


SEgamer - How's your troubleshooting coming?
 
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