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Repair vs Preservation

The guys does everything except fully dismantle the thing which would have been a real timer saver and gotten ALL the muck out. But worst off when hes done hes talking about gutting it to make "A New PC Build".... Just horrible.

His intentions were clear where he spends most of the time on the keyboard and never even has a decent shot of what is actually inside the terminal.
I tried to figure out who built it, and couldn't. People who do teardowns like this especially making no attempt to preserve the firmware have my contempt.
 
His intentions were clear where he spends most of the time on the keyboard and never even has a decent shot of what is actually inside the terminal.
I tried to figure out who built it, and couldn't. People who do teardowns like this especially making no attempt to preserve the firmware have my contempt.
At least I know im not crazy after having watched that. Because why would anyone care about a late 70s never seen before data terminal when you can stick some gaming board inside which noone will evsr remember again.....
 
Crazy to think Grant is my great grandparents' age. Doesn't seem like that long ago there were lots of people from that generation around.. now they're almost all gone.
I remember when "old people" were people born in the Victorian era. That generation is now long gone. These days, old people were hippies in the 60's.

I once had a long conversation with a guy born in 1893. He was still bitter about the fact that the Canadian government lied when they introduced income tax in 1917. They said it was a temporary measure to pay for the war and would be scrapped when war was over. I completely understand his bitterness.
 
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I have a couple of museum pieces and I'm all for fixing them, if it's a possibility. If you were a museum, that's one thing. It will sit in a storage warehouse and destroy itself over time. With a collector who can do restoration work, I'd rather see something working, if at all possible. As long as you respect the original item and if you are a purist, replace with date correct parts, again, if possible. If it's an IC here or component there, I'll leave modern parts in.

Half the fun is the hunt, the other half is seeing it work, in my view.
 
You have to ask yourself what you got the thing for. If you wanted it because it is historical and was used by somebody that adds value to the item, then keep it the way it is. If you snagged it to use, then fix it and use it.

Everything I buy tends to get opened up and cleaned, fixed, and run or else I wouldn't be buying it. There is a thrill in hunting for some rarity and getting it cheap, just like there is a thrill in buying something that is listed as broken and getting it to work.
 
I remember when "old people" were people born in the Victorian era. That generation is now long gone. These days, old people were hippies in the 60's.

I once had a long conversation with a guy born in 1893. He was still bitter about the fact that the Canadian government lied when they introduced income tax in 1917. They said it was a temporary measure to pay for the war and would be scrapped when war was over. I completely understand his bitterness.
I think something that has hit me with my Dad's passing, is that one day *I* will be where those 1910s seniors were.. the last of my kind. I will be the senior, there will be no seniors ahead of me anymore. I find that notion very disquieting.
 
You have to ask yourself what you got the thing for. If you wanted it because it is historical and was used by somebody that adds value to the item, then keep it the way it is. If you snagged it to use, then fix it and use it.

Everything I buy tends to get opened up and cleaned, fixed, and run or else I wouldn't be buying it. There is a thrill in hunting for some rarity and getting it cheap, just like there is a thrill in buying something that is listed as broken and getting it to work.
I bought it to have the thing, first and foremost. Normally I wouldn't think twice about just diving in and fixing it. I've just never had anything that I felt was truly historic. The TVT I'm not too worried about - it's in rough shape and stuff was just tossed inside, wires broken, case all dinged up. No point keeping that as it is. It's just the Mark-8 that throws me a bit because it's still mostly in one piece. Grant's participation in Mark-8 user groups, who were among the very first groups of computing hobbyists anywhere, is what kind of made me stop and ask the question.

That said.. as I think about it now, if Grant died 40 years ago then who really knows who's had their mitts on them since, right? 40 years is a very long time. I mean, my current theory is that, judging by the amount of dirt, someone (probably a child of Grant's) inherited these and they sat for eons in a garage somewhere. That person might have lived to present day and passed, hence they were dumped off at a local thrift shop. At the back the last 88 pin slot was broken in half lengthwise - and there is evidence of repair. I assumed that was Grant, but maybe it was one of his heirs trying to fix it cosmetically after accidentally breaking it. Judging by scratches and evidence of cans and such stored on top of the TVT, it doesn't look like they were too carefully stored. Maybe the boards being all loose in the TVT and mounting points for the motherboard missing indicates someone later on did mess with them.

Maybe it wasn't even family that had it, maybe he gave them to a friend and it passed through their heirs.

I guess I have to concede there's at least some likelihood that from 1984 until now, someone may well have messed around with them. So maybe I shouldn't get too hung up on 'originality'.
 
Well, as a perspective, I like to fix old stuff, and have some of the things I coveted in the 70s and 80s because I came from a dirt-poor divorced family. I originally started teaching myself to fix electronics before I was 10, because most of my friends had TV sets and I did not. So while designing new computers was my love in the following decade, I began my learning experience by fixing things.

So now I buy old computers mostly to fix them.

I prefer to leave them as-is when I can, and absolutely hate this trend of replacing old electrolytics when they don't need to be replaced and weren't causing any fault, but if fixing means replacing stuff, then it gets replaced. Then I have a habit of hoarding the old faulty components as though they will be restored to the non-functional computer in the future.

Repair doesn't necessarily mean refurbishment, and I think there are three points to this discussion - Repair vs Refurbishment vs Preservation, forming a triangle ( or maybe even a two-axis alignment of Preservation/Repair and Original/Refurbished) and you can sit pretty much anywhere within it's scope. I do love repairing computers and was fortunate enough to work in a high workload repair center for two years, doing what I loved ( second only to making new computers, which is what I left there to do ) - and I sit close to repair and preservation, leaning towards repair.

However, I don't necessarily hate refurbishment either. There's something about an old computer that has been refurbished with new or replacement parts so that it looks new that has appeal. Also I see people who sit along the refurbishment/preservation line, who don't care anything about function as long as you don't see it -so they don't repair the PSU or other elements, or don't mind faulty PCBs remaining unrepaired.

I try to use original parts where I can for a repair, but will still use a modern replacement component if nothing else is available - especially where custom chips are concerned.

Also, if there's one thing that really annoys me about old plastic computers.... It's why do cables somehow melt their way into the casing??? I assume it's something to do with solvents breaking down, pressure between the parts, and gradual softening with continued force applied, usually by gravity, but is there really that much solvent in a cable or a case? Because they don't appear damaged much or melded together - they just seem to plastically deform together. Sometimes it's so bad I think that replacing the parts, even with modern reproductions, is the way to go.

But generally the yellowing of the plastic and the cable marks remain after the repair and tells more about what I feel is important with what I collect, that it does about my ideologies. More to say, the yellowing and even a bit of grime does not bother me nearly as much as seeing the device non-functional.

David
 
It's why do cables somehow melt their way into the casing??? I assume it's something to do with solvents breaking down, pressure between the parts, and gradual softening with continued force applied, usually by gravity, but is there really that much solvent in a cable or a case?

My vague understanding is that vinyl in cables requires solvents/plasticizers sort of “emulsified” (I’m sure that’s not the technically correct term) into it to stay flexible over multi-year timescales and, yeah, it leeches out and softens/deforms hard plastics it comes into sustained contact with.

(Remember how in the 90’s there was this huge fad of covering electronic widgets like PDAs and laptops with that soft grippy covering that was great when it was new but by the mid-2000’s that stuff often turned into a positively toxic sticky tar/sludge that was almost impossible to remove? I think that was a similar chemistry problem, but on steroids.)
 
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My vague understanding is that vinyl in cables requires solvents/plasticizers sort of “emulsified” (I’m sure that’s not the technically correct term) into it to stay flexible over multi-year timescales and, yeah, it leeches out and softens/deforms hard plastics it comes into sustained contact with.

Then to get even, styrofoam eats vinyl cables.

One more reason to hate packing peanuts.
 
Generally I like to fix, clean and leave unless its rusty, cracked or broken. My XT had the front bezel broken in two and the case badly bent. That was glued, beaten and sprayed and looks pretty good but my PET while clean has the marks of its life and will stay that way.

However we have a brown Apple Lisa. Works ok (Hard drive is a bit reluctant to get out of bed sometimes) but its case is so brown it looks a bit naff on display.

So should we leave this 'patina', give it a retrobright, or spray it. My choice would be to leave as is because it works but it is a main display item so when we get our heads above the water, we need to have a long think about it.
 
I prefer to leave them as-is when I can, and absolutely hate this trend of replacing old electrolytics when they don't need to be replaced and weren't causing any fault, but if fixing means replacing stuff, then it gets replaced.

David

Oh I agree

I detest this 'recaping' trend with a passion.

Yes, leaking and bulging electrolytic, yes Apple IICI SMT's and every 80's RIFA but to remove period components just for the doing of it annoys me.

Of course its a fine principle to have right up until an exploding capacitor takes out some hard to find components but I have only had one machine that has suffered damage during a capacitor failure and that was an easy to replace rectifier.
 
Recapping for no reason: a no-go and nothing I would call a "fix". You can only fix what is broken
Yellowing: since retro-brighting only lasts for a very short time, it is a no-go for me as well. I no longer do it. A clean case is fine, yellowing just shows its age.
 
I think we will just say it was a special 'brown' edition as its no longer yellow but actually brown :)
 
After seeing the Lisa in person yesterday I can confirm, brown! ;)

I have a VT100 that's about the same shade. I've cleaned it up and stuck it out in the sun today. Seems to be a bit lighter. Only trying it on this unit as it's not in the best condition anyway. Not so sure I'd do it with a Lisa.
 
I tried solarbrighting once with a Lisa mouse (that was already in so-so condition), and while it seemed to improve things temporarily, the colour went to being worse than before after a while. I inferred that Lisa plastics may not be the best suited to that process and would not try it again.

They say that the brown or yellowed layer of discoloured plastic is only very shallow, so I look forward someday to some ultra high-tech laser gizmo that ablates a few microns off of the surfaces of case parts while still preserving their contours in minute detail.
 
I tried solarbrighting once with a Lisa mouse (that was already in so-so condition), and while it seemed to improve things temporarily, the colour went to being worse than before after a while. I inferred that Lisa plastics may not be the best suited to that process and would not try it again.

They say that the brown or yellowed layer of discoloured plastic is only very shallow, so I look forward someday to some ultra high-tech laser gizmo that ablates a few microns off of the surfaces of case parts while still preserving their contours in minute detail.
I've always been skittish about retrobriting. I feel like you're doing something that changes the chemical composition in the plastic in ways that might not be apparent until down the line. I recall a site that did some kind of investigation with special microscope and concluded it did affect the structure of the plastic in a negative way. And that the discoloration returned eventually unless totally protected from future UV exposure. Don't know how true that is - I've seen lots of people retrobriting with great results.. but I still worry not enough time has passed to know future effects for sure.
 
That would certainly immortalize him wouldn't it. I will do something like that I think, although I struggle with repair videos because unlike Adrian Black, I'm not really skilled at repairing electronics (I really struggle with understanding the how and why sometimes). But yeah, that'd be a nice way to keep his name out there. Wish I knew the story of how these machines ended up getting dumped off. Crazy to think Grant is my great grandparents' age. Doesn't seem like that long ago there were lots of people from that generation around.. now they're almost all gone.
I understand what you are saying about the repair part of the video though I think if you do enough prep (asking technical questions here, using both posts and private messages, as well as reading up on things), write up an outline and then film a ton of the process you will be able to edit it into something that wills work without shining a light on your lack of knowledge and/or experience in the field of electronics. Really, I don't think that you will even have to show a lot of footage of you working on the computer, most of it could be you narrating stills of parts, circuit diagrams and various close ups of the guts of the computer. And besides, that part of the video/doc will be just that, one part of the video, the story of the Mark 8, Grant's story and your acquisition of such a special piece will probably take up most of the video. No doubt it will be a lot of work all around but I know it's going to be pretty awesome.


It's all apart of getting old, people and things that we think are going to be around forever slowly begin to move from this world. Mentally we are still in our 30s but the reality is that we are pushing 50 (pretty sure we aroudn the same age). Btw, is Grant Runyan still with us? I thought that he had passed but I may have misread something or just made an assumption.
 
For a machine that special, spend the time to get period correct parts for the repair. I don't have any sockets from that era as I sold them all to a guy that sells Mark 8 repros a few years back. I do have some correct types for an Apple I, but no more of the colored ones used on the Mark 8.

I might have some period correct ICs. Just ping me and let me know what you're looking for.
 
My vague understanding is that vinyl in cables requires solvents/plasticizers sort of “emulsified” (I’m sure that’s not the technically correct term) into it to stay flexible over multi-year timescales and, yeah, it leeches out and softens/deforms hard plastics it comes into sustained contact with.

(Remember how in the 90’s there was this huge fad of covering electronic widgets like PDAs and laptops with that soft grippy covering that was great when it was new but by the mid-2000’s that stuff often turned into a positively toxic sticky tar/sludge that was almost impossible to remove? I think that was a similar chemistry problem, but on steroids.)
I have had a few negative surprises from long term storage...

20+ years of a cable (C64 power supply) wrapped around this and nothing else in the box showed any damage at all.
BadC64Modem.jpg
IC corrosion - 20-30 years. Do not think it was a simple matter of the foam because other ICs were on that same foam for that length of time AND in the same plastic bin - only a few were like this but most were fine. BTW I have many ICs over 40 years old and they are completely undamaged.

CorrodedIC.jpg

In the numismatic field, small coin packages (flips) came out made from soft pvc. They were all the rage for many years; until it turned out that the PVC leeched out of the package resulting in deposits on the coins, and, if left long enough, seriously damaging the coin. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5244/NCS-coin-conservation/

Hopefully, professional curators are on top of these kinds of issues, as much as possible.
 
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