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Sun MCA-3000 Modular Computer Analyzer
- Thread starter dduesing
- Start date
Can I ruin anything if I get any of the cables, on the controller or on the floppy end reversed?
I tried putting a memory stick into a USB slot on my regular computer. I put a .JPG file on it, a picture on MY car. I took it out of the USB port (did I need to eject it, I didn't). I put it into a USB port on my beater computer. Windows XP recognized it although it said it couldn't read it as fast as it could because of the type of memory stick it was and would read it slower. When I clicked on the memory stick
(Drive E) it did not show any files on it. I used the stupid Dog with the wagging tail to search for *.JPG and it didnt find anything. Makes me wonder if that method of moving files from my more modern machine to the beater via memory stick will work???
NeXT
Veteran Member
J3, J4 and J5 are exclusively for the hard drive. Since you will not be reusing the Kalok you can ignore step 4 through 8. Attaching the ribbon cable for the floppy drive is step 9:
You should not need to eject a USB stick. You can if you want but 90% of the time Windows knows that you can unplug a USB stick at any time without warning.
Windows XP likes to complain for no reason if you plug a USB 2.0 device into an older USB 1.x socket with a little "This device can perform faster" nag. It will work but it will just work at the older and slower USB 1.x speed (which doesn't matter here, so we can ignore that) If the USB stick appears in My Computer but now it's blank the only thing that comes to mind (I have not run into it myself) is the stick was formatted for exFAT (it was an upgrade for the original "FAT" format that merely added support for files bigger than 4gb, which we aren't using here) which Windows XP never really worked well with and came out many years after XP was released. Make sure you got nothing valuable on the stick and then format it on the Windows XP machine.
Can you damage a floppy drive or controller by plugging the cable in backwards?
It depends. There is no list of can and cannot handle a swapped cable because there's so many hardware variables. I've done it quite a few times. On that 34 pin ribbon cable, all the odd numbered pins from 1 to 33 are just ground. All the even numbered pins are the actual data stuff. Some drives and controllers can handle a few seconds with a flipped cable (a dead giveaway is the activity light on the front of the drives immediately turn on because you grounded out the DRIVE_SELECT pin) and I've had two or three floppy drives in the last 25 years where they instantly went pop and never worked again.
Again, everyone hated working around floppy drives until they started physically keying the connectors.
You should not need to eject a USB stick. You can if you want but 90% of the time Windows knows that you can unplug a USB stick at any time without warning.
Windows XP likes to complain for no reason if you plug a USB 2.0 device into an older USB 1.x socket with a little "This device can perform faster" nag. It will work but it will just work at the older and slower USB 1.x speed (which doesn't matter here, so we can ignore that) If the USB stick appears in My Computer but now it's blank the only thing that comes to mind (I have not run into it myself) is the stick was formatted for exFAT (it was an upgrade for the original "FAT" format that merely added support for files bigger than 4gb, which we aren't using here) which Windows XP never really worked well with and came out many years after XP was released. Make sure you got nothing valuable on the stick and then format it on the Windows XP machine.
Can you damage a floppy drive or controller by plugging the cable in backwards?
It depends. There is no list of can and cannot handle a swapped cable because there's so many hardware variables. I've done it quite a few times. On that 34 pin ribbon cable, all the odd numbered pins from 1 to 33 are just ground. All the even numbered pins are the actual data stuff. Some drives and controllers can handle a few seconds with a flipped cable (a dead giveaway is the activity light on the front of the drives immediately turn on because you grounded out the DRIVE_SELECT pin) and I've had two or three floppy drives in the last 25 years where they instantly went pop and never worked again.
Again, everyone hated working around floppy drives until they started physically keying the connectors.
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My floppies once lit as they got recognized by the system, now I went to take a screen shot and lit off the MCA-3000 and no lights. I think I better just wait for the new controller card and HD and install those and try again. I think I am getting anxious and excited to see this thing work an may be getting ahead of myself. Suffice it to say the F1 setup screen has all the things you described. Here is a photo of mine when I first started "playing around" with it. A little knowledge is dangerous...and I have almost no knowledge, so I am REALLY dangerous.J3, J4 and J5 are exclusively for the hard drive. Since you will not be reusing the Kalok you can ignore step 4 through 8. Attaching the ribbon cable for the floppy drive is step 9:
You should not need to eject a USB stick. You can if you want but 90% of the time Windows knows that you can unplug a USB stick at any time without warning.
Windows XP likes to complain for no reason if you plug a USB 2.0 device into an older USB 1.x socket with a little "This device can perform faster" nag. It will work but it will just work at the older and slower USB 1.x speed (which doesn't matter here, so we can ignore that) If the USB stick appears in My Computer but now it's blank the only thing that comes to mind (I have not run into it myself) is the stick was formatted for exFAT (it was an upgrade for the original "FAT" format that merely added support for files bigger than 4gb, which we aren't using here) which Windows XP never really worked well with and came out many years after XP was released. Make sure you got nothing valuable on the stick and then format it on the Windows XP machine.
Can you damage a floppy drive or controller by plugging the cable in backwards?
It depends. There is no list of can and cannot handle a swapped cable because there's so many hardware variables. I've done it quite a few times. On that 34 pin ribbon cable, all the odd numbered pins from 1 to 33 are just ground. All the even numbered pins are the actual data stuff. Some drives and controllers can handle a few seconds with a flipped cable (a dead giveaway is the activity light on the front of the drives immediately turn on because you grounded out the DRIVE_SELECT pin) and I've had two or three floppy drives in the last 25 years where they instantly went pop and never worked again.
Again, everyone hated working around floppy drives until they started physically keying the connectors.
Just to show I could get to the screen. I subsequently changed the CMOS battery and now the data holds. When I get the new hardware I will do some more adjustments to F1.I have tried reformatting my memory stick and it is now just FAT. Tried putting another .JPG on it and seeing if the ole beater could see it...nope. Not yet. I'll keep playing around. I think I am going to abandon getting a wireless connection on the beater as using my "good" computer and memory stick will eventually work out to be easier. Just need to fiddle with it a little more.
NeXT
Veteran Member
So with your newer floppy drives you will want Flexible Disk A and Flexible Disk B to read 1.44mb, 3.5" if possible and the fixed disks can be left at Not Installed. It also does not hurt to set the time and date at this point.
Since you are now comfortable with where the CMOS battery is you can play around in the F1 setup and try different combinations of settings and nothing is going to break. The worst you can do now is you pop a diskette in and it boots to DOS. When you are done playing around or you want to reset it back to defaults just turn the machine off, disconnect the CMOS battery for a few minutes and it will revert back to defaults with no harm done beyond you will need to reset the time and date again.
As for the USB troubles I can't entirely help you there. I guess try another USB stick or something. Those are one of those things that 95% of the time they "just work".
Now if anyone wise wants to chime in on configuring the "AT mode compatible" Caviar drive, now would be a good time to chime in as this isn't something I've ever tried to assist someone remotely on how to make it work.
Since you are now comfortable with where the CMOS battery is you can play around in the F1 setup and try different combinations of settings and nothing is going to break. The worst you can do now is you pop a diskette in and it boots to DOS. When you are done playing around or you want to reset it back to defaults just turn the machine off, disconnect the CMOS battery for a few minutes and it will revert back to defaults with no harm done beyond you will need to reset the time and date again.
As for the USB troubles I can't entirely help you there. I guess try another USB stick or something. Those are one of those things that 95% of the time they "just work".
Now if anyone wise wants to chime in on configuring the "AT mode compatible" Caviar drive, now would be a good time to chime in as this isn't something I've ever tried to assist someone remotely on how to make it work.
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NeXT
Veteran Member
Pulling this over form PM's so the troubleshooting can continue somewhere it can be seen, no offense.
So it didn't come back after it was power cycled and the floppy drives didn't do anything either so it's not as simple as a video cable being unplugged.
Hmm, first thing I would do is remove all other cards from the ISA bus backplane except the CPU board and whatever board the video output is coming from and try again. If we get video back, cool, we can add the rest of the cards one at a time until the fault returns and work from there. IF the fault is still there, unplug the CMOS battery and give it a few minutes, reattach the battery and power it back on.
If it STILL does not work, now things get concerning (at least for me because troubleshooting hardware faults remotely sucks). Follow the instructions in the MDSHDCD document I attached earlier on how to check the voltages at the hard drive power connector and then we can work from there.
If the hard drive is merely misconfigured because the settings were lost when the CMOS battery died and it's not the drive itself is dead we should be able to recover it. Only small bits of information here and there have been saved online for the Sun analyzers and Snap-On dumped most of their documentation a decade or so after they bought Sun. I'm assuming there are copies of more documentation and the disks somewhere in private hands but people like to be secretive in case the ghosts of long-gone companies come back to get them in their sleep, if you know what I mean.
Reinstalling XP at this point opens yet another can of worms because then we have product activations and hunting for drivers. I'm setup for a task like that but no offense you are not and I really do not want to guide anyone through an XP install over the internet. We just need Windows to read/write to the floppy disk and detect/see a USB stick. If you need to go and uninstall a bunch of programs to speed it up that's fine.
So it didn't come back after it was power cycled and the floppy drives didn't do anything either so it's not as simple as a video cable being unplugged.
Hmm, first thing I would do is remove all other cards from the ISA bus backplane except the CPU board and whatever board the video output is coming from and try again. If we get video back, cool, we can add the rest of the cards one at a time until the fault returns and work from there. IF the fault is still there, unplug the CMOS battery and give it a few minutes, reattach the battery and power it back on.
If it STILL does not work, now things get concerning (at least for me because troubleshooting hardware faults remotely sucks). Follow the instructions in the MDSHDCD document I attached earlier on how to check the voltages at the hard drive power connector and then we can work from there.
If the hard drive is merely misconfigured because the settings were lost when the CMOS battery died and it's not the drive itself is dead we should be able to recover it. Only small bits of information here and there have been saved online for the Sun analyzers and Snap-On dumped most of their documentation a decade or so after they bought Sun. I'm assuming there are copies of more documentation and the disks somewhere in private hands but people like to be secretive in case the ghosts of long-gone companies come back to get them in their sleep, if you know what I mean.
Reinstalling XP at this point opens yet another can of worms because then we have product activations and hunting for drivers. I'm setup for a task like that but no offense you are not and I really do not want to guide anyone through an XP install over the internet. We just need Windows to read/write to the floppy disk and detect/see a USB stick. If you need to go and uninstall a bunch of programs to speed it up that's fine.
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Sounds like you are talking about starting up using the old Kalok drive and recovering from that. The Kalok is history. I will eventually use the new (new to me) HD that I bought on Ebay and the new controller card, if it ends up I use any HD in the 3000. Initially I will hope to get the internal MCA-3000 computer working and start up from the two floppy drives. Once that is working, I can talk about integrating the HD.Pulling this over form PM's so the troubleshooting can continue somewhere it can be seen, no offense.
So it didn't come back after it was power cycled and the floppy drives didn't do anything either so it's not as simple as a video cable being unplugged.
Hmm, first thing I would do is remove all other cards from the ISA bus backplane except the CPU board and whatever board the video output is coming from and try again. If we get video back, cool, we can add the rest of the cards one at a time until the fault returns and work from there. IF the fault is still there, unplug the CMOS battery and give it a few minutes, reattach the battery and power it back on.
If it STILL does not work, now things get concerning (at least for me because troubleshooting hardware faults remotely sucks). Follow the instructions in the MDSHDCD document I attached earlier on how to check the voltages at the hard drive power connector and then we can work from there.
If the hard drive is merely misconfigured because the settings were lost when the CMOS battery died and it's not the drive itself is dead we should be able to recover it. Only small bits of information here and there have been saved online for the Sun analyzers and Snap-On dumped most of their documentation a decade or so after they bought Sun. I'm assuming there are copies of more documentation and the disks somewhere in private hands but people like to be secretive in case the ghosts of long-gone companies come back to get them in their sleep, if you know what I mean.
NeXT
Veteran Member
Presumably so.
Since I have no documentation on how to load the hard disk beyond inserting a service disk and following whatever the menu selection says I'm hoping you have that in your stack of floppies, otherwise you might be stuck with the "floppy-only" configuration. I got a good stack of manuals and service information for the MEA-1500 but for the MCA-3000 (that isn't in German and buried in the internet archive because buddy is removing links..) I have absolutely no documentation I can look at.
Edited: And if you DO want to give a try at reading German, the four parts of the manual can still be found here along with the 17mb download of European vehicle codes: https://web.archive.org/web/20150211130901/http://www.fette-vette.de/sun-3000-handbuecher.html
Since I have no documentation on how to load the hard disk beyond inserting a service disk and following whatever the menu selection says I'm hoping you have that in your stack of floppies, otherwise you might be stuck with the "floppy-only" configuration. I got a good stack of manuals and service information for the MEA-1500 but for the MCA-3000 (that isn't in German and buried in the internet archive because buddy is removing links..) I have absolutely no documentation I can look at.
Edited: And if you DO want to give a try at reading German, the four parts of the manual can still be found here along with the 17mb download of European vehicle codes: https://web.archive.org/web/20150211130901/http://www.fette-vette.de/sun-3000-handbuecher.html
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Cans of worms, Pandoras box, Computers...as before, you know what is entailed and I don't, and I trust your judgement. I will leave well enough alone on the beater.Pulling this over form PM's so the troubleshooting can continue somewhere it can be seen, no offense.
So it didn't come back after it was power cycled and the floppy drives didn't do anything either so it's not as simple as a video cable being unplugged.
Hmm, first thing I would do is remove all other cards from the ISA bus backplane except the CPU board and whatever board the video output is coming from and try again. If we get video back, cool, we can add the rest of the cards one at a time until the fault returns and work from there. IF the fault is still there, unplug the CMOS battery and give it a few minutes, reattach the battery and power it back on.
If it STILL does not work, now things get concerning (at least for me because troubleshooting hardware faults remotely sucks). Follow the instructions in the MDSHDCD document I attached earlier on how to check the voltages at the hard drive power connector and then we can work from there.
If the hard drive is merely misconfigured because the settings were lost when the CMOS battery died and it's not the drive itself is dead we should be able to recover it. Only small bits of information here and there have been saved online for the Sun analyzers and Snap-On dumped most of their documentation a decade or so after they bought Sun. I'm assuming there are copies of more documentation and the disks somewhere in private hands but people like to be secretive in case the ghosts of long-gone companies come back to get them in their sleep, if you know what I mean.
Reinstalling XP at this point opens yet another can of worms because then we have product activations and hunting for drivers. I'm setup for a task like that but no offense you are not and I really do not want to guide anyone through an XP install over the internet. We just need Windows to read/write to the floppy disk and detect/see a USB stick. If you need to go and uninstall a bunch of programs to speed it up that's fine.
Where it will be helpful as we proceed, I can scan or take pictures of appropriate pages of the 3000 manuals. Don't mind others seeing our discussions and chiming in, but I am always wary of well-meaning observers providing errant information. Thats to be expected as I see it all the time on car forums. I get to know quickly who the gurus are and know what they are talking about, and others like myself who don't. I thank you once again my newfound guru friend. (for those who have just joined)
NeXT
Veteran Member
Might I ask a little more specifically in California you might be? There are some people in the bay area who might be able to assist you with document scanning and disk imaging, plus there is also stores like Office Depot who can also take most manuals (in binder form) and scan it all to a PDF file for not too much money if you don't feel like slaving over a flatbed scanner for days.
Edited: Not pushing you into a purchase here but in case you are concerned about things breaking in the future it seems right now is actually a really good time to be having someone helping you with this because you're getting help with the disks and there's spare parts floating around. Right now there's a salvage pulled logic tray out of an MCA-3000 on ebay from a seller in Tucson. AS-IS for $150 plus shipping.
Edited: Actually, I'm pretty sure this is the first time in the history of The Internet anyone has really sat down and talked the technical details of these. Lots of people seem to of at one time or another said they had one and nobody ever seems to know anything about them. Computerized vehicle diagnostic systems are just an empty void of knowledge.
Edited: Not pushing you into a purchase here but in case you are concerned about things breaking in the future it seems right now is actually a really good time to be having someone helping you with this because you're getting help with the disks and there's spare parts floating around. Right now there's a salvage pulled logic tray out of an MCA-3000 on ebay from a seller in Tucson. AS-IS for $150 plus shipping.
Boards, Etc From Vintage Sun Car Analyzer - Nice Old Circuit Boards! See Pics | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Boards, Etc From Vintage Sun Car Analyzer - Nice Old Circuit Boards! See Pics at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
Edited: Actually, I'm pretty sure this is the first time in the history of The Internet anyone has really sat down and talked the technical details of these. Lots of people seem to of at one time or another said they had one and nobody ever seems to know anything about them. Computerized vehicle diagnostic systems are just an empty void of knowledge.
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Might I ask a little more specifically in California you might be? There are some people in the bay area who might be able to assist you with document scanning and disk imaging, plus there is also stores like Office Depot who can also take most manuals (in binder form) and scan it all to a PDF file for not too much money if you don't feel like slaving over a flatbed scanner for days.
Edited: Not pushing you into a purchase here but in case you are concerned about things breaking in the future it seems right now is actually a really good time to be having someone helping you with this because you're getting help with the disks and there's spare parts floating around. Right now there's a salvage pulled logic tray out of an MCA-3000 on ebay from a seller in Tucson. AS-IS for $150 plus shipping.
Boards, Etc From Vintage Sun Car Analyzer - Nice Old Circuit Boards! See Pics | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Boards, Etc From Vintage Sun Car Analyzer - Nice Old Circuit Boards! See Pics at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!www.ebay.com
View attachment 1271638
Edited: Actually, I'm pretty sure this is the first time in the history of The Internet anyone has really sat down and talked the technical details of these. Lots of people seem to of at one time or another said they had one and nobody ever seems to know anything about them. Computerized vehicle diagnostic systems are just an empty void of knowledge.
Thanks, I am in communication with the seller. This forum has been really good to me and my empty head. I am glad someone has found my thread of interest and I am hoping we can get this MCA-300o up and running again.
I am in Applegate, California, and any help in the general area will be gladly accepted. I hope I can strike a deal with the Ebay seller. That would be sweet!
Alright, I think I have found one of the problems. I can't explain why, but it seems as if at least one of the power supplies, the one that is connected to the backplane buss in the MCA-3000 has failed. I took all the boards out except the processor. Turned on the 3000 and measured voltages at the connector on the buss board that comes from the power supply (there are two supplies in the power supply drawer). I traced back the wire bundle towards the power supply. There is one Molex type connector between the buss board - rack - board drawer - whatever and I checked out to make sure the plugs were seated, and their contacts were clean. It was OK. I disconnected the buss board from the power supply and checked the voltages at the connector. Nothing. I took the output connector off the power supply and measured directly on the power supply terminals. Nothing. The power supply is a Condor VKA 20. I am the village idiot when it comes to power supplies, does this type need a load to output voltages? I have tested it both loaded (processor board plugged in) and unloaded at the supply disconnected from everything. I have screen shots from early in the project that attest to the fact the supply once worked, along with the graphics card and the keyboard. I even had floppy drive lights at one time. Don't know of anything I did to short the supply. The AC line input fuse on the supply is good (both by sight and removed and measured Ohms=0. Is a puzzlement. Guru, what say ye?Pulling this over form PM's so the troubleshooting can continue somewhere it can be seen, no offense.
So it didn't come back after it was power cycled and the floppy drives didn't do anything either so it's not as simple as a video cable being unplugged.
Hmm, first thing I would do is remove all other cards from the ISA bus backplane except the CPU board and whatever board the video output is coming from and try again. If we get video back, cool, we can add the rest of the cards one at a time until the fault returns and work from there. IF the fault is still there, unplug the CMOS battery and give it a few minutes, reattach the battery and power it back on.
If it STILL does not work, now things get concerning (at least for me because troubleshooting hardware faults remotely sucks). Follow the instructions in the MDSHDCD document I attached earlier on how to check the voltages at the hard drive power connector and then we can work from there.
If the hard drive is merely misconfigured because the settings were lost when the CMOS battery died and it's not the drive itself is dead we should be able to recover it. Only small bits of information here and there have been saved online for the Sun analyzers and Snap-On dumped most of their documentation a decade or so after they bought Sun. I'm assuming there are copies of more documentation and the disks somewhere in private hands but people like to be secretive in case the ghosts of long-gone companies come back to get them in their sleep, if you know what I mean.
Reinstalling XP at this point opens yet another can of worms because then we have product activations and hunting for drivers. I'm setup for a task like that but no offense you are not and I really do not want to guide anyone through an XP install over the internet. We just need Windows to read/write to the floppy disk and detect/see a USB stick. If you need to go and uninstall a bunch of programs to speed it up that's fine.
Do you think a more modern computer power supply could be grafted into the 3000 in place of this OLD supply? They are plentiful and cheap. More reliable? I could check the specs on the other power supply in the 3000 and replace it at the same time???? It is the same manufacturer. Just saying...a couple screw type terminal strips, some crimp on fork lugs, super careful assembly???
NeXT
Veteran Member
It could be. I have never seen photos of inside the power supply tray in a 3000 so I cannot say but +5, +12, -5 and -12 are absolutely something a newer power supply will have, but new-new (like, in the last ten years) power supplies might be missing the negative voltages.
It will require a little bit of a load. Keeping the CPU board and video card in should be plenty. Is this going to be a part that salvaged assembly is going to have or is hidden elsewhere in the machine? Can you do me a favor and triple-check that both the fuse on the power supply is good and AC 120v is present in the input terminals?
It will require a little bit of a load. Keeping the CPU board and video card in should be plenty. Is this going to be a part that salvaged assembly is going to have or is hidden elsewhere in the machine? Can you do me a favor and triple-check that both the fuse on the power supply is good and AC 120v is present in the input terminals?
Yes, I checked both of those. Since my last message I hooked up with a Facebook marketplace seller and got two Dell 300W power supplies. $7 each...not bad I checked them out by shorting the green wire to ground to start the supply and fan and then checked red +5V, yellow +12V, and orange +3V (which will not be used. I can cut off all the connections and put fork lugs on the wires or butt splice the wires directly into the old power supply connections. Can I just reverse polarity of a red and black pair of wires to get -5V and a pair of yellow and black wires to get -12?
NeXT
Veteran Member
You cannot get negative voltages here by switching the wire polarity around.. What you need to look for is an ATX power supply that has both a blue wire (-12v) and a white wire (-5v).
Since I'm this involved at this point I'll offer to look over and service the original power supply for the computer portion if you would like. Just pay shipping.
Since I'm this involved at this point I'll offer to look over and service the original power supply for the computer portion if you would like. Just pay shipping.
Further research shows that the main wire bundle coming to the power supply that would go to the motherboard of a more modern computer (24 pin connector) has a -12V wire (blue) and in some cases but not on my supplies there is a white wire for -5V. So the only voltage I don't have that is native to this supply is -5V.