Torch Triple X c1985.

[Crashedfiesta]

My work colleague has been at it again and given me a Torch Triple X computer with various other bits and pieces including schematics, manuals, loads of disks and cables. I've been very cautious about just whacking power into it (good job too) and I've learnt a lot about floppy disks and the Greaseweazle, having managed to back up the majority of the Unix System V floppies that come with it (the last three - of 18 - need more attention and might be gone forever but are only 'man' pages so I hope not too important).

So, the power supply was a 1980's special in that it had a 'soft touch' to turn on and off. To achieve this is had a battery inside. Yep. You can see where this is going. The battery has effectively destroyed the power supply. I tried to repair it but, not being an expert on PSUs my attempts were a failure. I suspect it is too far gone (see pictures).

The main boards inside the machine are unaffected by the battery leakage so I rigged up an old ATX power supply to power the computer up. It's missing the -5v but this is only needed on the serial port and, apparently, to drive the speaker beep. At the first switch on there was no sign of life at all. The 12v rail is fine but the 5v rail is down at less than a quarter of a volt. This says to me that there is a short on the board. I had thought that the thing may be waiting for a 'soft start' signal but looking through the manuals it looks like that signal is all generated in the PSU and is only concerned with starting the 5v supply to the board. Once it's started the board itself generates a signal back to the power supply to keep it on. By this logic, feeding 5v directly into the board should just trigger the startup procedure. But it doesn't.

Has anyone else had any experience with these machines? They seem to be so rare that I really don't want to make a mess of it...

I have confirmed that the floppy drive works OK as I've been using it with the Greaseweazle. The hard disk has not been switched on yet but I might feed power directly into it just to see if it will work.

 

[eswan]

I've never heard of that machine, but my guess would be a shorted tantalum capacitor pulling the 5v down. Looks like there's about 5 billion of them in that system. If it were on my bench, I'd apply power and take a look with a thermal camera. Otherwise, there's always the calibrated finger test.

 

[Crashedfiesta]

So I desoldered the tantalum caps - there were about eight of them - and they all appear OK.

The remaining eleventy million caps are 100nf ceramics. I applied power and tested with the multimeter that there was zero resistance in one direction and OL in the other. This was the case for all of them (about 100 or so in reality). So, assuming I've done it right, it's not a shorted cap..

I was kind of banking on it being a shorted cap so I'm open to any advice on finding shorts on an ultra obscure 1980s 68010 based motherboard...

 

[Al Kossow]

My work colleague has been at it again and given me a Torch Triple X computer with various other bits and pieces including schematics, manuals, loads of disks and cables. I've been very cautious about just whacking power into it (good job too) and I've learnt a lot about floppy disks and the Greaseweazle, having managed to back up the majority of the Unix System V floppies that come with it (the last three - of 18 - need more attention and might be gone forever but are only 'man' pages so I hope not too important).

I'd like to get copies of what you've imaged as well as images of the firmware and good board pictures

There is a service manual at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/torch/triple_x

 

[Crashedfiesta]

@Al Kossow No worries. Even if I can't get my unit working, there's so little info on these machines online (apart from the service manual, which is a bit weird..) I'm keen to get as much info out there as I can.

I managed to image 15 of the 18 disks in the SysV set. The actual disk media in disk 16 was physically stuck and looks to have been previously damaged. Disks 17 and 18 just wouldn't read properly. All three seem to have some damage which I hope to be able to try and recover some time soon. I also have the 'key' disk imaged but I'm not sure if they are linked to specific machines so it may not be any use to anyone with another unit.

I also have schematics which are basically hand drawn. I'm working on improving the quality of them. If I have any time I might even have a go at reproducing them in some CAD package as the copies I have are copies of copies.

As I get to stuff I'll keep posting it here or at least somewhere on this board.

Cheers,

Crashed.

 

[Crashedfiesta]

Well. I've learned a lot about KiCAD over the last couple of months. I've re-drawn the schematics for the Torch motherboard and just have the keyboard and power schematics to do. Not sure if they'll be any use to anyone out there (I only know of one other person who has one and I've already emailed them a copy) but attached is a pdf copy for anyone interested. There's probably errors in there so no warranty implied, not responsible for loss, damage, exploding cats etc.

My ATX power supply died while trying to get the main board up and running so I had to find another one. I'm now 100% sure there is a fairly significant problem to do with power. The 68010 pin 49 (Vcc) had basically melted in the socket. Amazingly, it still works - after a quick repair I plugged it into a handy Amiga A500 motherboard to check - but I'm still puzzling how to find what must be a significant short in one of the components on the board when nothing seems to get very hot...

 

[daver2]

Nice machine. I have never seen one of these either. Are you UK based (being a Torch machine)?

I am not sure what you are saying in post #3 though regarding the 0L and zero resistance. This looks like a diode transfer function.

Dave

 

[Crashedfiesta]

Nice machine. I have never seen one of these either. Are you UK based (being a Torch machine)?

I am not sure what you are saying in post #3 though regarding the 0L and zero resistance. This looks like a diode transfer function.

Dave

Yes, I'm UK based. Just up the road from you looking at your location.

I was trying to check for any shorted ceramic capacitors with my multimeter. I'm no expert on this but my understanding is that the caps will allow a resistance reading one way but not the other. If they have zero resistance both ways then it's shorted. Always happy to be corrected as I am definitely an enthusiastic (but cautious) amateur when it comes to these things.

I've not made too much more progress other than getting a blue screen which shows some garbage but the garbage appears from the top of the screen and descends to the bottom, followed by a second run of garbage from the top to about a third of the way down the screen. The actual startup of this should be the Torch logo displayed on the top part of the screen so, my hunch is that there is an issue with the video RAM which is made up of 8 DRAMs (16k x 4bit hitachi). I don't have any way of testing the 4bit chips unfortunately. I have already tested all of the 1bit DRAMs that make up the standard 1Mb RAM.

Anyway, here's some more pictures showing the apparently 'melted' 68010 pin 49 and my repair..

 

[Crashedfiesta]

And here's a pic of the garbage I get (or used to before I socketed the video RAM )..

 

[daver2]

Nah, I don't know where you picked that up from!

Low value ceramic capacitors should indicate open circuit (at DC voltages).

As the capacitance increases, the capacitor will appear as a short circuit initially and then the resistance will increase as the capacitor charges up to a high value.

When you reverse the meter's probes on the capacitor, the resistance will appear negative (!), then increase to 0, then carry on increasing to a high value again.

All of the ceramic decoupling capacitors will be across the power rails, so you can't measure one capacitor without removing at least one leg of the device.

Dave

 

[Crashedfiesta]

Nice one. I shall get desoldering and try again!

 

[Pernod]

I managed to image 15 of the 18 disks in the SysV set. The actual disk media in disk 16 was physically stuck and looks to have been previously damaged. Disks 17 and 18 just wouldn't read properly. All three seem to have some damage which I hope to be able to try and recover some time soon. I also have the 'key' disk imaged but I'm not sure if they are linked to specific machines so it may not be any use to anyone with another unit.

I also have schematics which are basically hand drawn. I'm working on improving the quality of them. If I have any time I might even have a go at reproducing them in some CAD package as the copies I have are copies of copies.

Excellent work on the schematics, been looking for these for a few years now.

Can you post a photo of the original floppies, so that I can see how they're labelled?

 

[Crashedfiesta]

Excellent work on the schematics, been looking for these for a few years now.

Can you post a photo of the original floppies, so that I can see how they're labelled?

No problem! See attached. The disks come in a 'Torch' branded box too so I've taken pictures of that as well.

The labelling of the disks is slightly different in the contents text in the centre of the label. So disc 0 is 'Boot Disc' with handwritten '1.3 + BNET' added by the previous owner. You can see the text on discs 0, 1 and 2 in the photos. The others have the following text (using the Torch spelling of 'Disc' )

Disc 3 /bin/*
Disc 4 /bin/*
Disc 5 /bin/*
/lib/*
Disc 6 /lib/*
/usr/bin/*
Disc 7 /usr/bin/*
Disc 8 /usr/bin/*
/usr/lib/cref/*
/usr/lib//font/* <--- Not sure if the double stroke is a typo on the label
/usr/lib/help/*
Disc 9 /usr/lib/help/*
/usr/lib/macros/
/usr/lib/spell/*
Disc 10 /usr/lib/spell/*
/usr/lib/tabset/*
/usr/lib/term/*
/usr/lib/acct/*
/usr/lib/*
Disc 11 /usr/lib/*
/usr/include/*
/usr/pub/*
/usr/spool/*
/usr/src/*
Disc 12 /usr/src/*
/usr/bin/graf/*
Disc 13 /usr/bin/graf/*
/usr/lib/graf/*
/usr/bin/uucp/*
/usr/lib/uucp/*
Disc 14 /usr/lib/uucp/*
/usr/games/*
Disc 15 /usr/games/*
/usr/man/*
Disc 16 /usr/man/* <----- This is the first bad disk
Disc 17 /usr/man/* <----- This is the second bad disk
Disc 18 /usr/man/* <----- This is the third bad disk

I am intending to try and clean the bad disks to see if I can get them to be recovered when I get time. My main aim at the moment is to try and get the hardware up and running - I'm fairly certain that the video RAM is bad but I have a 4bit DRAM tester on the way so I can test it properly before splashing out on 16k*4bit DRAMs..

And just to let you know there are a couple of mistakes on the schematics I re-drew. Again, when I get some time I'll update them.

Hope that all helps!

 

[Pernod]

No problem! See attached. The disks come in a 'Torch' branded box too so I've taken pictures of that as well.

The labelling of the disks is slightly different in the contents text in the centre of the label. So disc 0 is 'Boot Disc' with handwritten '1.3 + BNET' added by the previous owner. You can see the text on discs 0, 1 and 2 in the photos. The others have the following text (using the Torch spelling of 'Disc' )

And just to let you know there are a couple of mistakes on the schematics I re-drew. Again, when I get some time I'll update them.

Hope that all helps!

I did notice a few errors with tag labelling, but also aren't clear on the original schematic. Are these the mistakes you refer to?

One item I don't see on the schematics, and haven't seen photos of either, is the floppy controller. Presume it's a separate board so can you post some photos of it?

 

[Crashedfiesta]

I did notice a few errors with tag labelling, but also aren't clear on the original schematic. Are these the mistakes you refer to?

One item I don't see on the schematics, and haven't seen photos of either, is the floppy controller. Presume it's a separate board so can you post some photos of it?

Yes, the tags on some lines of the original schematics were really difficult to decipher. I should really go back and do a proper review to see if there's any I can derive rather than 'guess'. There's also a sheet with a couple of links at the top of the page that don't go anywhere!

And you're quite right. There is a separate controller board for the floppy and SCSI. It's an OMTI board of some sort. If I get time I shall pop out and get a photo or two of it - no schematics for that though sadly, but if I can get the board model number there may be a manual online.

 

[Pernod]

And you're quite right. There is a separate controller board for the floppy and SCSI. It's an OMTI board of some sort. If I get time I shall pop out and get a photo or two of it - no schematics for that though sadly, but if I can get the board model number there may be a manual online.

Of course, the OMTI 5200 controller board, and databook available.

 

[Pernod]

I've not made too much more progress other than getting a blue screen which shows some garbage but the garbage appears from the top of the screen and descends to the bottom, followed by a second run of garbage from the top to about a third of the way down the screen. The actual startup of this should be the Torch logo displayed on the top part of the screen so, my hunch is that there is an issue with the video RAM which is made up of 8 DRAMs (16k x 4bit hitachi). I don't have any way of testing the 4bit chips unfortunately. I have already tested all of the 1bit DRAMs that make up the standard 1Mb RAM.

The startup sequence tests the video RAM (first garbage screen), then copies the 68010 bootstrap code to video RAM (second run of garbage). During this process the screen is supposed to be all blue (all palette colours are set to same blue), so looks like you have a palette issue.

Are you getting any sound, maybe an initial beep, followed by a whoop?

 

[Crashedfiesta]

Hi @Pernod. At the moment all I am getting is a pale blue screen i.e. no more garbage, which makes me think there is another problem as the manual seems to suggest that the screen colour should be dark blue. There is no initial beep that I can hear and no 'whoop' (which is also described in the manual). After about 15 seconds I get a very faint beep code which seems to be 'Short Long Long Long' i.e. Error 7 - Main CPU timed out. There may also be an issue with the speaker output.

I did remove the video RAM so I could test it and socket it. I will have to go and double check I didn't damage any of the tracks, although I'm trying to be extra cautious with this as it seems so rare.

With the dodgy sound and potential palette issue, could there just be an issue with the monitor cable making poor connections at one or other end? But that doesn't explain the CPU error beep code.

 

[Pernod]

Hi @Pernod. At the moment all I am getting is a pale blue screen i.e. no more garbage, which makes me think there is another problem as the manual seems to suggest that the screen colour should be dark blue. There is no initial beep that I can hear and no 'whoop' (which is also described in the manual). After about 15 seconds I get a very faint beep code which seems to be 'Short Long Long Long' i.e. Error 7 - Main CPU timed out. There may also be an issue with the speaker output.

I think the dark blue suggestion is misleading, what you're seeing is likely correct. You current progress suggests the video RAM and palette are good, but now failing to release the 68010 to run the bootstrap code from video RAM by releasing HALT and asserting RST.

Where do you see the 'whoop' sound mentioned in the manual, can't find it, but assume it just means initial selftest complete.

Which Caretaker ROM do you have in your machine? I'm working with Adrian's Caretaker 1.2 dump, is yours the same?

I presume you know my observations are based on my attempt to emulate the machine. My only video output at the moment is the pale blue screen, but can see it's currently stuck with 'SCSI controller 0 not present', which is expected as I haven't emulated the OMTI controller board yet.

What are your ROM dumping capabilities? Eventually I'd like to see a ROM dump from the OMTI board and also the internal ROM from the keyboard MCU.

 

[Crashedfiesta]

I think the dark blue suggestion is misleading, what you're seeing is likely correct. You current progress suggests the video RAM and palette are good, but now failing to release the 68010 to run the bootstrap code from video RAM by releasing HALT and asserting RST.

Where do you see the 'whoop' sound mentioned in the manual, can't find it, but assume it just means initial selftest complete.

Which Caretaker ROM do you have in your machine? I'm working with Adrian's Caretaker 1.2 dump, is yours the same?

I presume you know my observations are based on my attempt to emulate the machine. My only video output at the moment is the pale blue screen, but can see it's currently stuck with 'SCSI controller 0 not present', which is expected as I haven't emulated the OMTI controller board yet.

What are your ROM dumping capabilities? Eventually I'd like to see a ROM dump from the OMTI board and also the internal ROM from the keyboard MCU.

So the 'whoop' is referred to as a 'short rising tone' in the Caretaker manual on page 3. Having read it again it implies that if all tests pass there is a rising tone rather than emitting the tone then running tests - I really should RTFM a bit more closely. So that means that the system is behaving correctly, just faulty. There's no obvious beep when it is first switched on but then the error beeps I get are very quiet so it would be easy to miss.

The Caretaker version in my machine is 1.3 (I have a .BIN dump and a .HEX dump - zip attached) which I hope you find interesting. And I didn't know you were trying to emulate it! I'd be really interested to know if you've got a website or anything documenting what you've managed to do so far! Have you worked out anything around the 'key disk' which is my biggest worry getting this thing to work?

I use a Dataman S4 for dumping ROMs. It's a bit old but is built like a tank and works great. The software even works with Windows 10. It was given to me by the same chap who gave me the Torch. If I can get a ROM dump from the OMTI I'll stick it on this thread.

Let me know what documentation you have as I have the Caretaker Manual, Triple X Handbook, Inside System V, System V Administrator's Manual, Programming System V, System V User Manual Section 1 and System V User Manual Section 2 to 6, as well as some addendums to the Triple X Handbook. I've also got instructions on fitting and using the Ethernet Chip Set, some information on the OMTI jumper settings, a price list for various Torch upgrades (£700 for a Torch engineer to come and fit a 1MB memory upgrade - bargain) and various other bits and bobs. I should probably start scanning some of it.