Trusted Platform Module (TPM)

[krebizfan]

Even Softmaker is promoting their subscription versions over the one time install versions. The real money is to be made soaking up a steady flow of dollars every year instead of trying to convince people to buy a new version every few years and discovering the income stops because the new version works poorly.

I don't mind the TPM requirement. Yes, it cuts the systems that will be supported to only 5 years previous but having to support 15 years worth of hardware (when Win 11 falls out of support) is hard enough. Adding another decade of older hardware just increases the support problems.

 

[Lutiana]

Of course, they still have no explanation as to WHY they think they need it.

I assume TPM is for tracking.

TPM (Trusted Platform Module) is not for tracking, it is for cryptographic use, and is a way to guarantee that the OS booting or the firmware on the machine has not been maliciously altered. Basically it is a ASIC dedicated to the calculations needed for generating cryptographic data and storing private keys, nothing more, nothing less.

It is not accurate to say that MS has offered no explanation as to why they are making it mandatory in Windows 11, the answer to this is obvious once you know what the TPM does, they are doing to make your computer more trustworthy and to deal with the ever growing landscape of ransomware and other malicious actors out there. It is not an unreasonable move for a company that makes the software that runs well over 60% of all end user computers, and it something Apple has been doing for the last 3 or 4 years (the T2 chip is essentially the apple version of TPM) on their computers and nearly a decade on their iPhones (the secure vault).

Like it or not, TPM/T2/Secure Vault is the way the industry is going, and in years to come these technologies will be mandatory for more than just Windows/MacOS/iOS.

It is also trivial to bypass their requirements for TPM, MS themselves posted how to do this (well to bypass TPM 2.0 in favor of TPM 1.2), but by doing so you make yourself significantly more open to attack from malicious actors, and MS just does not want to be party to that, so they make the requirement official, and it's on you to do deal with the consequences of bypassing it.

 

[Unknown_K]

Any hardware key that generates unique data/cookies can be used to track you. Same reason they want to join microsoft.net. Data is currency.

Facebook recently said it was going to ditch is face recognition database which had over 1 billion unique data points. They keep sending me emails to post pictures of myself so friends know it is me but they were just data mining which is all Facebook is (data mining and targeted advertising).

Microsoft doesn't care about people getting hacked.

 

[SomeGuy]

Would Office 2021 even fit on a CDROM? Cheaper just to make you download it. To be honest what additions to office are there compared to a early 2000's version anyway?

I meant DVD, I've been told that Microsoft does provide a downloadable ISO, but again, you have to have a Microsoft Account to download it.

 

[tradde]

It is also trivial to bypass their requirements for TPM, MS themselves posted how to do this (well to bypass TPM 2.0 in favor of TPM 1.2), but by doing so you make yourself significantly more open to attack from malicious actors, and MS just does not want to be party to that, so they make the requirement official, and it's on you to do deal with the consequences of bypassing it.

Just another reason not to use MS.

 

[Lutiana]

Any hardware key that generates unique data/cookies can be used to track you. Same reason they want to join microsoft.net. Data is currency.

Facebook recently said it was going to ditch is face recognition database which had over 1 billion unique data points. They keep sending me emails to post pictures of myself so friends know it is me but they were just data mining which is all Facebook is (data mining and targeted advertising).

Microsoft doesn't care about people getting hacked.

You obliviously have no idea how the TPM works if you think MS is using it to track you.

The TPM generates cryptographically secure unique things, that do not leave the TPM, at all. If it did, then the TPM would be completely useless. Basically anything that needs to throws a private key at the thing and all they get is a Yes/No back, and public keys are not that unique, apps can also ask it for a random number and get one in return (which is then also used for various cryptographic functions). This is the basis of cryptography and why they tell you guard your private keys.

Besides, it would undermine their product offerings to make the TPM comprisable, and would loose them money, like a lot of money. There are other, less risky ways for them make your computer/presence on the internet trackable, and yes forcing people to sign up for an MS account on Windows home editions is part of this, but the exchange is that they are moving towards making Windows home editions free for end users.

And yes, MS does care if you get hacked, but not for the same reasons you care about being hacked, bad publicity costs them money. They are incorporating this functionality precisely because they need to be seen as helping the issue so that both consumers and more importantly enterprise customers, continue to spend money on their products. Their interests in keeping us from getting hacked align with ours, and forcing the use of the TPM is actually good for everyone, and if you don't understand why then I would posit you are part of the reason they are doing this. And as I said, the writing has been on the wall for sometime about this, even some of the more security focused Linux distro will move to requiring TPM in the not too distant future if they have not already (side note, Linux has had full support to TPM for some time, just about every distro can make use of the TPM modules).

They make money from advertising, but not nearly as much as they do from hosted services, subscriptions and OEM software sales. Their total revenue in 2020 was $143B, of which only ~$8B was from advertising, or right around 5%, they won't be risking their non-ad revenue by using the TPM stuff to track you...

You all hate MS, I get it, they are an evil company hell bent on stealing your data, kicking your dogs and sleeping with your wives. But do me favor and do just a little bit of research before you make rather asinine fear mongering claims like this on forums. There are legit reasons to dislike and not trust MS, but their move to making use of the TPM module is not really one of them.

Oh, and lastly, just for the record, TPM is an open standard meaning, MS did not create it, they have simply decided to use it and make it a requirement for Windows 11.

 

[Ruud]

Even Softmaker is promoting their subscription versions over the one time install versions. The real money is to be made soaking up a steady flow of dollars every year instead of trying to convince people to buy a new version every few years and discovering the income stops because the new version works poorly.

Not a good argument IMHO. What does the full product cost and what does it cost par year? Let's assume 20%. If the new version works poorly and you cannot convince the maker to improve the product, you'll loose the whole sum. But if you lease the software and the maker doesn't improve it, you'll loose only 20%. So after a year the software-maker will certainly notice that its customers don't like his attitude. So the advantage of this lease construction is that it forces the maker too improve its software all the time. Your advantage: You will always get the newest software.

What I don't like about MS is that they want to know everything about you and especially that you cannot use the software if you are not connected to the internet and use their "extra" services like their cloud. What is wrong with using my own HDD?

My solution: I download, for example, LibreOffice and will regular donate these guys a sum.

 

[Pepinno]

You obliviously have no idea how the TPM works if you think MS is using it to track you.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think the TPM chip cannot be used to uniquely track users in a stealthy way from Windows' core-services to Microsoft datacenters, and you show your naivety if you think Microsoft will not monetize this new ability the TPM chip affords them. What does Microsoft want?, to entrench itself in the Identity Provider Business as the go-to solution. That is money, my friend, and Microsoft in positioning itself to cash on it.

What is needed is a DNS server that blackholes all Microsoft domains, for that is the only way to get out of Microsoft's "radar" (modern Windows versions will even by-pass your hosts file if you try to black-hole Microsoft domains there). And even that will not be enough, as Edge is now Google-Chrome based and can do DNS-over-HTTP bypassing the DNS servers you have set.

Hahahaha, game over. They win, you Windows.

You all hate MS, I get it, they are an evil company hell bent on stealing your data, kicking your dogs and sleeping with your wives. But do me favor and do just a little bit of research before you make rather asinine fear mongering claims like this on forums.

Oh, I hadn't read this part of your post. You appear in my screen as "Administrator" of this forum. I hereby affirm you are a clown and unfit to administer this forum. You should be banned.

 

[Agent Orange]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think the TPM chip cannot be used to uniquely track users in a stealthy way from Windows' core-services to Microsoft datacenters, and you show your naivety if you think Microsoft will not monetize this new ability the TPM chip affords them. What does Microsoft want?, to entrench itself in the Identity Provider Business as the go-to solution. That is money, my friend, and Microsoft in positioning itself to cash on it.

What is needed is a DNS server that blackholes all Microsoft domains, for that is the only way to get out of Microsoft's "radar" (modern Windows versions will even by-pass your hosts file if you try to black-hole Microsoft domains there). And even that will not be enough, as Edge is now Google-Chrome based and can do DNS-over-HTTP bypassing the DNS servers you have set.

Hahahaha, game over. They win, you Windows.


Oh, I hadn't read this part of your post. You appear in my screen as "Administrator" of this forum. I hereby affirm you are a clown and unfit to administer this forum. You should be banned.

Maybe you, Pepinno, could give the unwashed masses a short dissertation on just how Microsoft is listening in on us via the TPM chip. And while you're at it, please apologise to Lutiana who has done a wonderful job in trying to keep this forum on an even keel.

 

[Pepinno]

Maybe you, Pepinno, could give the unwashed masses a short dissertation on just how Microsoft is listening in on us via the TPM chip. And while you're at it, please apologise to Lutiana who has done a wonderful job in trying to keep this forum on an even keel.

I will not apologize to a person who, to win an argument, pictures the other side as saying that "(Microsoft) is kicking our dogs and sleeping with our wives". I, however, will welcome his apology.

 

[Lutiana]

I hereby affirm you are a clown

Only on weekends, I do children's birthday parties and make a pretty decent balloon animal.

And to your point, I will give you that the some clever engineer could possibly use the TPM for tracking, but MS won't do this, as it is not in there interest to do so, and while their OS is closed source it is the most poked and prodded OS out there, doing this would get caught reasonably quickly. And as I pointed out, advertising/tracking is a relatively tiny part of MS's total revenue. They stand to risk significantly more money by getting caught doing this than they'd even make from doing it. So as I said, their interests and ours align on this one, but for different reasons.

Also, there is a lot more blatant telemetry the MS pulls from systems, which makes the need for some covert TPM based tracking completely superfluous and even less worth the risk on their end.

But if you are not comfortable with the MS requirement to use the TPM, then don't use Windows, and move on with you life. There is no reason to endlessly debate why other should not use it on a forum about vintage computers...

 

[Pepinno]

I will give you that the some clever engineer could possibly use the TPM for tracking, but MS won't do this, as it is not in there interest to do so

That reasoning looks like wishful thinking.

Fact 1: MS already pulls telemetry from Windows systems into their central database.
Fact 2: Now with Windows 11 MS has the ability to fingeprint each telemetry datapoint with a unique TPM key. Even cloned systems will have a different TPM key.
Question: Will MS use that new ability and indeed fingerprint that telemetry, and therefore, fingerprint your system, and therefore fingerprint all activity otherwise done from such system?
Your answer: No, they won't.
My answer: Yes, they will.

Time will tell. If we go with history and precedent, MS will use that ability to win an edge in the market. What market? The emerging market of the Indentity Provider Business.