Windows 12 in the wings

[GiGaBiTe]

Wine under Linux should allow running most Windows app in Linux. Maybe a bit slower, but probably not too much.

Except it doesn't. The only Windows software Wine will run "ok" is from the XP era and older, and even that takes a lot of effort. You'll find yourself having to delete and remake Wine prefixes and mucking around with installed dependencies a lot. Anything that requires Vista or newer, or .NET framework, OLE, cryptography services (SSL, TLS, etc.) or IE7 or newer isn't going to work.

I still want to know if we will be able to use it without a freaking Microsoft account. As far as I know, even using the non subscription based Microsoft Office 2022 requites a Microsoft account.

They are really pushing this Microsoft account stuff. Heck, look in the security settings of Windows 11 (or was it 10?) and if you aren't using their OneDrive, it will bitch at you that you need to make your computer "more secure" by literally uploading all your data to Microsoft. What a load of rotten BS.

Microsoft isn't the only one pushing SaaS, every other major software vendor is as well. Why release a new version of a product every X years, when you can charge a monthly access fee for the product instead and rake in orders of magnitude more revenue. They market this as a good thing "because we can make updates faster and release them more frequently" - which is a load of crap. Fast and frequent updates are a terrible thing, and Windows 10 has showed us this first hand for its entire lifespan. Major system bricking updates being released one after another, breaking millions of machines around the world. Microsoft couldn't go a month without being in the front page of every news outlet for yet another broken update package that bricked yet more machines and caused yet more massive data loss.

In the SaaS model, the end user is also the product. Microsoft, Google, Apple and everyone else have no qualms about selling all of your most private data to the government and 3rd parties. They make money on the front end by the consumer paying for their subscription, and money on the back end, selling your data.

 

[TH2002]

I fully understand these are rumors at this point, but if Windows (an OPERATING SYSTEM) becomes a cloud-based subscription service... no. Just no.

Most people already pay for too many recurring subscriptions as is, and Microsoft doesn't have to act like we all need yet another subscription to pay for.

Also, the travesty known as Chrome OS has already shown that cloud-based computing is not a real solution for those who have to do real work. Many people live in areas where high speed Internet access (or even Internet access in general) isn't always reliable. I'm actually okay with services like Filen to back up important files, but that's all cloud file storage should be used for. Why the hell should anyone be forced to store ALL of their files in the cloud? If it's one of those days where your internet is being wonky, good luck accessing your own files!

Anyhow, I think I'm reading too deep into this, but at least I'll have another couple years before ArcGIS drops support for Windows 10...

 

[commodorejohn]

More than anything, I don't see them ever convincing OEMs to go in for it. Dropping a few hundred quid (or more!) on a new PC only to be told that you need to fork out for a subscription to the OS is a recipe for day-one returns - so, what, then? If the vendors eat that cost, then it's a total hard pass on adoption from their end; if the customers are expected to, it means a calamitous drop in (effective) sales. Either way, it means zero traction whatsoever for MS's end of things.

Mind you, I'm not saying they wouldn't try it; we've seen at least back to the XBone debacle that they'll try any mush-brained scheme to enrich themselves at the end-user's expense until enough people screech and beat them with their handbags to get the message across, but we've also seen that as soon as that does happen, they'll back down and run off to sulk in the corner about how nobody appreciates their genius, until the next rollout when the cycle happens all over again. Oy gevalt.

 

[Divarin]

I can tolerate Windows 7 or 10 when I need them... eprom programming, firmware flashing, those kinds of things, if I can't do them in Mac or Linux. But those uses are few and far between. And all my windows boxes are dual boot with some Linux for when I need those CLI tools. I am a Mac user day to day but if I had to send all my Macs into the Sun, I would use Linux before any kind of cloud subscription based OS, windows or not. It seems ludicrous.

You'd be surprised, after switching to linux I had a need to use my TL866-II plus programmer using Xgpro, although it's a windows program I was able to get it to work in Linux and I could read & write roms with it just fine.
The setup was a little tricker than normal but there was a helpful guide here: https://nerdyelectronics.com/install-tl866-ii-programmers-software-xgpro-on-a-linux-machine/

If this thread is going to turn into a Linux vs. Windows thread (not that there's anything wrong with that), then I'd like to put where I'm coming from into context. I have been a Windows user since 3.1 up until about a month ago. I've always preferred using Windows on a workstation. I've tried repeatedly to get comfortable with Linux as a desktop OS over the years and have always found Linux to be too confusing and support from the community usually ended up with snide comments implying I'm too stupid to understand it or "it's free what do you expect" and eventually getting frustrated and going back to Windows. I've always felt like Linux makes a great server but for a workstation I would prefer Windows.

Then, one day, when I had a need for a used PC to watch movies on in a game-room I was building in the basement, I picked up one from goodwill's web site which came pre-loaded with Linux Mint. I just assumed I'd be wiping that and installing windows but I gave it the benefit of the doubt and I was surprised to see that it recognized all of the hardware I connected, didn't complain about thumb drives, wireless bluetooth mice/keyboards, or USB wifi adapters and understood all of the video codecs and I was able to get all of the streaming services working (except Peacock for some reason, and of course there's a lot of streaming services I don't subscribe to so can't speak for them all)

Anyway when my main PC's hard drive got too corrupt to use anymore and it was time to reinstall I decided I'd give mint a try there as well. So far the list if things I can't do in Linux is pretty small. There's no Visual Studio for linux (visual studio code yes, but that's not a proper IDE in my opinion) so I had to run that in VirtualBox with windows 7 running in that. And there's one Steam game I couldn't get to run even though others seem to have no problem running it through linux (Using Proton).

Of course to just say "Linux does 99.9% of what I need" isn't very helpful to anyone if I don't at least partially itemize that list because anyone who's considering making the switch is going to ask themselves if they can continue to do what they do, not what I do so here's what I've been able to do so far (remember, I'm still a Linux newbie. I'm no expert and certainly don't consider myself to be a fanatic, I like any OS that just works and don't "look down my nose" at any of them):

• Cura - 3D printing slicing software
• Xgpro - EPROM reader/writer (through wine)
• SyncTerm - BBSing program, I can run the Linux native version or the windows version through Wine
• Notepadqq - A linux program very similar to Notepad++
• Burning optical disks
• Downloading torrents with Deluge
• Transferring files with FileZilla (FTP)
• Playing Everquest Project 1999
• Playing lots of Steam games that are natively supported in Linux (supposedly you can play a lot of the windows only ones using Proton but I've only tried that with one game and it didn't work, haven't tried with other windows only games yet)
• Playing one of my favorite but older train simulators "Trainz" through Wine
• Dosbox
• Brave browser which is my preferred browser as it's really good at blocking ads, especially on YouTube
• Photo editing (okay haven't tried doing any photoshop level of editing yet, just rotation & scaling)
• DipTrace - a PCB design software
• ModPlug - a windows based .mod file player (tracked music)

And probably more that I'm not remembering right now.
Basically any time I think of something I need to do and used to be able to do in windows I either can find a linux alternative or I can go into my corrupt but still navigable old windows drive, type "wine (executablename.exe)" and more often than not it just works. Or I can install a windows program through wine.

To a lot of people Linux has gotten a bad reputation over the years. In my experience over the past month I'd consider it a practical operating system that doesn't require you to be an expert and mostly just works with few tweaks (really just customization), it just takes a little bit of a commitment to give it a chance. It may also depend on the distro, I haven't played around with many others I just picked Mint because it seemed to be pretty good on that used PC I picked up and it was already installed.

 

[skate323k137]

Wine is nice and all, but I personally see exactly why "This is the year of the Linux desktop," is a running joke every year. For someone like myself who was a sysadmin for years, sure, I can make it work. When my job was primarily administering Linux servers, I used a linux desktop. Even then just keeping nvidia drivers working was a nightmare; I had to leave a copy in /root/ accessible in single user mode. So IMO like some have said above, unless you like fixing your computer as much as using it, Linux is not suitable for the average user to use as a desktop OS.

 

[VERAULT]

Except it doesn't. The only Windows software Wine will run "ok" is from the XP era and older, and even that takes a lot of effort.

Yeah that has been my experience with it. Still useful but not an "easy" work around. I remember at one time in the early days of windows 7 I has STEAM working in WINE.. That didnt last long.

 

[Robbbert]

I also have used Windows since 3.1, so I guess I'm baked in by now. I really, really don't want to give it up - even if Microsoft are trying their hardest to drive their customers away.

From what I've heard about Linux is you spend more time trying to get the computer to work than you do actually using it for something productive.

 

[VERAULT]

I also have used Windows since 3.1, so I guess I'm baked in by now. I really, really don't want to give it up - even if Microsoft are trying their hardest to drive their customers away.

From what I've heard about Linux is you spend more time trying to get the computer to work than you do actually using it for something productive.

I have been using windows since ver 3.0. I started using Linux back in 2009 even though my friends and colleagues started in the 90's as I guess I was a really late starter too.. But Windows has been getting really bad since after windows 2000 came out. Sure if you used windows since 3.1 you would have noticed. to say its a sinking ship is an understatement.. ITs just a floating debris field at this point so you really really need to learn linux. What @skate323k137 said is not wrong but there are plenty of distros which make it seamless and take care of everything for you.. Those arent the ones I like but they they are ALWAYS a good place to start.

You can keep using Windows in the interim but learn a backup before you are dead in the water.

"It had black eyes, like dolls eyes...."

 

[skate323k137]

I have been using windows since ver 3.0. I started using Linux back in 2009 even though my friends and colleagues started in the 90's as I guess I was a really late starter too.. But Windows has been getting really bad since after windows 2000 came out. Sure if you used windows since 3.1 you would have noticed. to say its a sinking ship is an understatement.. ITs just a floating debris field at this point so you really really need to learn linux. What @skate323k137 said is not wrong but there are plenty of distros which make it seamless and take care of everything for you.. Those arent the ones I like but they they are ALWAYS a good place to start.

You can keep using Windows in the interim but learn a backup before you are dead in the water.

"It had black eyes, like dolls eyes...."

Yeah, I can be fair; Ubuntu / Mint can be set up or used by a lot of people, depending on their use case. I used to reimage peoples virus laden windows machines with Ubuntu years back if all they did was web browsing, and honestly, it worked out for most of them.

 

[VERAULT]

Honestly I liked early Ubuntu.. Up until they switched to UNITY.. Then It was like seeing windows 8 for the first time and being repulsed (even though that happened before windows 8's release). I havent touched it since. I know they have other interfaces... so what. But it was a spring board to try all kinds of different Linux releases so I am glad it happened.

 

[Chuck(G)]

For what it's worth, my wife's been using Debian Linux after moving from WinXP for several years now. Desktop is XFCE4, so it's pretty simple. For the small number of old DOS applications (that wouldn't run on Win10 64 anyway), she uses DOSEMU and the integration is seamless. For a very few Win32 apps, she has a Virtualbox with XP loaded--but even that's getting pretty rare.
As far as what most people use for day-to-day non-gaming use (e.g. browsing, e-mail, document editing, teleconferencing), she might as well be on Windows for all she can tell. Aside from the occasional hand of Solitaire, she doesn't game.
Linux has come a long way, particularly in the last decade or so. My EDA tools are all Linux-based--vendors have finally got the message.

As far as tinkering with sofware, it isn't an issue for her. She knows how to click on the software update notice. Her basic system has changed hardware a couple of times--it always booted right up without changes.

Is Windows needed? From my own perspective, yes, but given the nature of my work, even OS/2 is necessary from time to time, as is Windows NT 4.0 and 95.

 

[VERAULT]

Good point, virtualbox within linux is a simple and easy way to get windows on a linux box when you need it.

 

[3lectr1c]

virtualbox works but I use VMware workstation for my needs, and while it has a linux version, I just couldn't get it to work. Compatibility issues AND it needed me to sign kernel drivers which of course there is no good tutorial on how to do... tried for a long time but couldn't figure it out because every tutorial assumes you've been using linux for 10 years.

I have a huge investment in VMware, all my VMs are set up for it and virtualbox is slower and less feature rich.

 

[Caluser2000]

I also have used Windows since 3.1, so I guess I'm baked in by now. I really, really don't want to give it up - even if Microsoft are trying their hardest to drive their customers away.

From what I've heard about Linux is you spend more time trying to get the computer to work than you do actually using it for something productive.

That is total rubbish. I started out with Dos/windows 3.1 and efind Linux very very usable for day to day desktop stuff. I'm not an IT tech but just a person intersted in computers.

 

[GiGaBiTe]

Wine is nice and all, but I personally see exactly why "This is the year of the Linux desktop," is a running joke every year. For someone like myself who was a sysadmin for years, sure, I can make it work. When my job was primarily administering Linux servers, I used a linux desktop. Even then just keeping nvidia drivers working was a nightmare; I had to leave a copy in /root/ accessible in single user mode. So IMO like some have said above, unless you like fixing your computer as much as using it, Linux is not suitable for the average user to use as a desktop OS.

Video drivers are MUCH better under Linux than even just a few years ago. Many distros have AKMODs for video drivers now, which automatically recompile themselves whenever a new kernel is installed. This takes much of the unceremonious being dumped to a broken shell on reboot if you forgot to build a new kernel module. Or even worse, being stuck in a broken X11 server that you can't escape to the shell for whatever reason.

What will never be fixed though is Marvell drivers in Linux. Marvell has a hate boner for anything Linux, and most of their WLAN and Ethernet chipsets don't have proper Linux drivers. There are still lots of headaches using NDISWrapper to get Windows drivers to work under Linux.

Yeah that has been my experience with it. Still useful but not an "easy" work around. I remember at one time in the early days of windows 7 I has STEAM working in WINE.. That didnt last long.

Fortunately, those days are long gone. Valve released a native Linux version of Steam back in 2013 with the Steampipe update, so you don't have to worry if Wine is going to break it or not. They also have a Proton compatibility layer, which is essentially a heavily customized Wine for running as many games as possible that have Windows only binaries. It works fairly well on many games, but it's far from perfect.

I switched my main workstation over to Linux back in 2019, and I've had fairly few issues with Steam on Linux, though I mostly play older games.

 

[Malc]

I went from XP to linux as my daily internet driver a couple of years ago, I use an old DELL thin client with linux mint and XFCE, Having never used linux before i found it an easy install and it just works, For everything else i use other PC's which don't go on the net anymore.

 

[GiGaBiTe]

From what I've heard about Linux is you spend more time trying to get the computer to work than you do actually using it for something productive.

Absolute nonsense. I've built Linux machines for people with little to no computer skills and they got along just fine. Most people, all they do is use the internet and write word documents, so you just put Firefox and Libre Office on the desktop and they have no issues once you show them how to open those.

 

[Chuck(G)]

One may as well criticize Android. Or does Windows 11 run on your mobile phone?

 

[Agent Orange]

With over 2 billion Windows users worldwide, you would think that some enterprising group would come up with a compatible Windows operating system. I still run W7 and XP as gamers and W7 is an excellent OS, everything one needs. Microsoft is in the business of making huge sums of money. After virtually giving away Windows 11, they need to recoup and just like your cellular phone and cables bills, you will be forced to ante up in order to stay in the game.

What needs to be done, is for Linux to become a little more user friendly and cater to the Windows user's needs. Most people don't want to have to deal with a command line. People want to fire up their PC, see a menu, click and get to work. If they need to download, click on an icon and let the install begin. Yes, it needs to have the look and feel like windows before the masses will jump in.

I know there are many out there that will say Linux is already there, but not enough to pull the Windows folks in. I've used Linux in the workplace as well as tinkering with it at home and I have found it somewhat challenging with the number of distros which can be mind boggling to the newcomers.

 

[Agent Orange]

Absolute nonsense. I've built Linux machines for people with little to no computer skills and they got along just fine. Most people, all they do is use the internet and write word documents, so you just put Firefox and Libre Office on the desktop and they have no issues once you show them how to open those.

Not nonsense. The key thing here is that you built the machine for someone and they use what you provided. No argument with that. But, what about the users that don't have access to your skills?