Working systems vs. As-Is for Parts or Repair

[bettablue]

I know this might be a silly question, but I'm looking for an answer for an upcoming article I plan to write for my web page www.allthingsdos.com.

My question is this. At what point does a non-working computer, peripheral, monitor, keyboard, etc. become more valuable than one in almost perfect condition? I can see one reason being that SOME replacement parts are becoming more and more scarce? Or are prices dictated by some other factor?

I have seen numerous items offered for auction/Buy it now; on E-Bay, where a computer questionable working condition, will sell faster, or for more money than a seemingly perfectly working computer in almost "like new" condition, and of the same exact make and model.

I have read your responses, and hope to have cleared up some of the confusion. The term "it" was all I can think of at the time. So, I hope this makes a bit more sense.

I would sincerely love to see your responses.

As always... Thanks much.

 

[Ole Juul]

Sounds like fun.

At what point does a non-working computer, peripheral, monitor, keyboard, etc. become more valuable than one in almost perfect condition? Is it because replacement parts are becoming more and more scarce? Or is due to some other factors?

I'm not clear on whether you're referring to market value, historical value, or some other value. Also, to whom? I'm personally not very interested in "perfect condition", and whether something works or not sometimes matters to me, and sometimes it doesn't. Some of the stuff in my collection I won't even bother testing - I simply don't care. So, a little more perspective on where you want to go with this would be useful.

 

[Unknown_K]

Never. If you want replacement parts you tend to want to scavenge a working system to get them (else you are stuck with more broken parts). I wouldn't pay more for a defective but pristine system then I would for a flawed but working one.

 

[krebizfan]

I can't imagine any non-working system being more valuable than a working system of the same model. A non-working exotic (Commodore C65, Twiggy Mac, those awesome IBM industrial cases) could easily get more than the much more common variants. Scarcity creates value. Scarcity can also apply if the non-working system has intriguing components where the hope is that enough information can be gleaned to restore to a working state and one wants all the pieces.

Sometimes, impatience can overwhelm common sense. If I have an almost working system, there is always the chance that a second system will have working parts to replace the failed components of the first. It might take months for a complete working system to show up on any of the places selling such. Though I think defective but pristine is more the focus of movie set designers because the case should look new if the movie covers events 20+ years ago.

 

[Caluser2000]

IMHO I dought non working components or systems ever being more valuable than working components or systems of the same type. So my answer, for what it is worth, is never

 

[Ole Juul]

Everybody seems to understand the term "value" in this context except me. Am I the only one who doesn't immediately think about money?

As an aside; I can see a non-working computer signed by the Pope being more "valuable" than a working one of similar model. And signed by Steve Jobs - double that price.

 

[Caluser2000]

Usabilty was part of my selection criteria. For instance working ISA cards/systems are helpful in keeping old test kit/items still in use on a daily basis at work. So valuable in the sense thy are still usable. Dead cards/systems are just useless.

FWIW I couldn't give too hoots who signed the bloody things

 

[SomeGuy]

One aspect to keep in mind is that a non-working computer is no longer really a whole "computer". Once and a while you might get someone who comes along and goes "hey, i can fix that!" but I would estimate it is more likely to get parted out.

Thanks to insane shipping prices, a motherboard or some pulled chips might be more desirable on the market than a bulky non-working computer, which might get its case and other parts discarded anyway. Parts might not be worth "more", but selling a $10 dead computer + $60 S&H vs a $10 chip + $5 S&H? Quite a savings if both parties know what to look for.

Once you move from the realm of vintage PCs in to vintage parts, you have to be able to identify what parts are really rare and useful. A VLSI chip from a 486 motherboard? Useless. Generic 74LSxxx chips from an 8088? You can still buy many of those new! But if it is an exact match for a part used in an Apple I then you have hit the jackpot.

There are plenty of resources out there to determine if a whole computer is worth something. But not as many for individual parts.

 

[Chuck(G)]

"Value" to me means the ability to operate doing useful work.

One situation that really hurts is to see someone without the skill or inclination to learn how to repair a device simply part it out or trash it rather than pass it on to someone who might have the capability to repair it. You know, "Darn, another Apple II that doesn't work. I'll bin it and look for another one that does work right out of the shipping box."

Something consigned to landfill has negative value.

 

[GADFRAN]

Tom,

I would say you have come to the “ right place “ for the info you are seeking.

Yes, many divergent opinions of course !

“ My take “ is that naturally a working system is better than a non-working system

But does it just boot or do a lot more is another key question.

Does it come with the software ? If not, it may be very difficult to get it and without it the computer will not work. Some software is very proprietary to not only a particular computer company, but also a particular model !

Today, things are much different of course, but many “ not “ into vintage computing do “ not “ know that.

A “ big factor “ as Chuck, who is an expert in many ways, so what he says is very valuable, can you do the technical “ stuff “ to get one working or to plug and play with parts that you are not sure work into a working system to determine if they work or not ?

Certainly, “ safety “ is a big concern – you can be killed electrically if you do not know what you are doing. Also, the system may be damaged, modified, etc. which can increase the hazards. This is stressed in many posts on this site.

Finding someone with this expertise and hiring them is another big challenge.

Then getting the manuals for repair & maintenance. Some are available, but many are not.

Shipping is a big factor, but if local or can make arrangements with someone visiting the area, such great costs can be minimized.

Ultimately most are involved in vintage computers not for the money, but for the ” hobby “ – keeping them running, besides the non-monetary historical value of course.

All value their time in many ways – it is limited – you do not get any more of it in life ! So how do you want to spend it specifically ?

With modern computing today mostly being just another “ commodity “ many times, it is just get a “ new “ computer which will probably be cheaper and more powerful than the modern one you have.

Just look at what you can get for only about $500 today and it will work right out of the box – if not you just return it and get one that will !

Just to get someone to look at one not operating can begin at $50 - $100 if you can even find a reliable and knowledgeable such person today.

In essence, I and many others explored many of these issues in my many posts on this site and in my book on Kaypros and early 1980’s personal, portable computers [PPC]. A free download of a draft is available on my new website –

WWW.KAYPROSTSNSF.ORG

I will be posting many more PowerPoint presentations on many diverse topics in the near future of course, some more on Kaypros.

Simply, Kaypro was” going bankrupt “ and who knows what was actually shipped toward the end ? Many early computer companies were in the same situation !

Do a search on this site and you will get a better idea of “ just what Kaypro “ do you have ? What it says on the case and even inside may “ not “ be what you actually have, especially if it was modified.

So all the best in all you all do for vintage computing of course !

Please continue to post to increase our “ knowledge bases “ on any and all vintage computers !

Frank

P.S.

In case you do not know, you will see from my many posts I modified all six [6] of our Kaypros from II’s to “ 8 ‘s “ using commercially available parts and directions at that time.

I know them well and like many others can verify how frustrating it can be when you cannot get them to work. I got into it for many reasons – I knew more than the local repair places – they even contacted me for info – plus the great investment – 6 x $2000 each, but in today’s dollars $5000 each ! Plus all else you invested – time to learn & become proficient with the software & systems !

But it was inevitable to just go to IBM compatible – Gateway, HP, Compaq, Toshiba, local builds, etc.

As we continue our “ downsizing and cleanout “ in retirement, as I have mentioned in the past, I “ could “ eventually post them each as a “ complete package “ – e.g. software, parts, chips, manuals, directions, disk drives, etc.

Any serious Kaypro enthusiast who knows how to do repair / maintenance, etc. will have” all they need” to keep them running.

I doubt even “ parting any out “ of these items would be worth the time for most.

I have not checked in years, but back then you would be lucky to get $25 - $50 for a working Kaypro with the software. If they were “ not working,” you can see from many of the posts many of the issues involved, especially for those “ new “ to vintage computing.

Yes, we all laugh when someone posts on eBay some “ supposedly rare Kaypro or other vintage computer “ and they want thousands of dollars for each !

But my time is “ very valuable “ especially now in retirement not knowing how many years you have left – only some good !

So realistically, they will just go to the “ local electronics recycling center “ as is the law in PA now. I will post “ where and when “ so any interested can go and get any and all for free, if they will allow it and I presume they would – it is less they have to dispose of !.

It is the “ reality” today. Much involved with my decades of science, technology and society [STS] research, some sponsored by the National Science Foundation [NSF].

Lot more on my website and what I am concentrating on now to help society” better understand and manage “ STS issues in their everyday lives + “ payback “ in some small way for all that was invested in me by so many in so many ways, besides NSF !

My life and careers were “ well beyond my wildest dreams, “ but with a lot of hard work and sacrifices of course like so many others !

.

 

[AnyoneYoubet]

I know this might be a silly question, but I'm looking for an answer for an upcoming article I plan to write for my web page www.allthingsdos.com.

My question is this. At what point does a non-working computer, peripheral, monitor, keyboard, etc. become more valuable than one in almost perfect condition? Is it because replacement parts are becoming more and more scarce? Or is due to some other factors?

Your question does not make sense.

I think you mean that the good system would not sell before the bad system, Because the the cost of the good system would demand a higher price, thus the lower price system would socially unsalable if it worked.

If you prove a piece of junk to work , does it carry a label of working junk?

 

[Ole Juul]

Your question does not make sense.

Well, lets go over it:

At what point does a non-working computer, peripheral, monitor, keyboard, etc. become more valuable than one in almost perfect condition?

Older stuff is generally more valuable from a collectors point of view. Even monetary value can be higher for an older computer. Certainly an old/broken/junked Craig is worth more in scrap than a brand new 2013 drug store computer. So yes, the first statement makes sense.

Is it because replacement parts are becoming more and more scarce? Or is due to some other factors?

The non-parallel reference to the previous sentence (is it) is indeed a bit of a head-scratcher. What exactly is due to other factors is not clear either. So, I took the first sentence to be an understandable question about a certain point - presumably point in time. The second two sentences make reference to some unknown "it", which we'll just have to wait for Tom to explain to us.

 

[AnyoneYoubet]

Well, lets go over it:


Older stuff is generally more valuable from a collectors point of view. Even monetary value can be higher for an older computer. Certainly an old/broken/junked Craig is worth more in scrap than a brand new 2013 drug store computer. So yes, the first statement makes sense.



The non-parallel reference to the previous sentence (is it) is indeed a bit of a head-scratcher. What exactly is due to other factors is not clear either. So, I took the first sentence to be an understandable question about a certain point - presumably point in time. The second two sentences make reference to some unknown "it", which we'll just have to wait for Tom to explain to us.

I am sorry , the statement , question , whatever you want to call it makes no sophistical sense, and maybe that was the point.

break
it down.

one part ---- > not working, broken , and useless.
one part --- > good working condition.

Same manufacture part I assume.
Same cost new , same date manufactured, exactly the same part.
But the broken one is gonna be worth more , because, some cosmic death ray fried it and the broke it.
Spell checker can't even understand LoL.
Good luck.

 

[Caluser2000]

Well, lets go over it:


Older stuff is generally more valuable from a collectors point of view. Even monetary value can be higher for an older computer. Certainly an old/broken/junked Craig is worth more in scrap than a brand new 2013 drug store computer. So yes, the first statement makes sense.

Nup it doesn't. You're comparing Apples and grape fruit ie you've bought out the ol strewman. Compare the same items/type/part no./ age etc which was my interpretation of Thomas's initial request for comment was say 2 items- one broken/useless possibly that isn't in pristine physical condition compared to something of the same/age/type that is pristine and in perfectly servicable/usable carrying out the tasks required of it.

 

[Ole Juul]

What I'm having trouble with is the word "it" being used in an unusual way. I think it would be nice if Tom was to rewrite the question using more mainstream grammar.

 

[Ole Juul]

Nup it doesn't. You're comparing Apples and grape fruit ie you've bought out the ol strewman. Compare the same items/type/part no./ age etc which was my interpretation of Thomas's initial request for comment was say 2 items- one broken/useless possibly in pristine physical condition compared to something of the same/age/type that maybe isn't so pristine but is perfectly servicable/usable carrying out the tasks required of it.

I am most certainly not bringing out any strawmen. The original question makes it sound like the subject is about a continuum. He says "at which point", for instance. I am suggesting end points. We then go from each of those, and work our way toward the point where the imagined crossover happens. That is the process which needs to be applied in this case. Unless, of course, we're talking about the same parts of the same age, as you suggest could be a possibility. In which case - we're not in Kansas any more.

 

[AnyoneYoubet]

I am most certainly not bringing out any strawmen. The original question makes it sound like the subject is about a continuum. He says "at which point", for instance. I am suggesting end points. We then go from each of those, and work our way toward the point where the imagined crossover happens. That is the process which needs to be applied in this case. Unless, of course, we're talking about the same parts of the same age, as you suggest could be a possibility. In which case - we're not in Kansas any more.

Last time posting on this.

Ok one of my first computers had a really cool keyboard, it had a little joy stick on it and it and it had a mouse connection on the side. Years have pasted and I remembered it and I thought, hay I can get one on ebay and make it work with my new computer if I worked on the electronics to modify it to use with my present computer.
I'm going after a broken one , as long as all the keys are in place I'm good, because I will be replacing the centerboard anyway. Cost of the broken one is more than I would have to pay for a brand new keyboard, but I want the old one.
So I pay more for it.

 

[bettablue]

Sounds like fun.



I'm not clear on whether you're referring to market value, historical value, or some other value. Also, to whom? I'm personally not very interested in "perfect condition", and whether something works or not sometimes matters to me, and sometimes it doesn't. Some of the stuff in my collection I won't even bother testing - I simply don't care. So, a little more perspective on where you want to go with this would be useful.

Howdy Ole! It's been a while hasn't it?

To answer your question, I am simply referring to the sales value of an as-is computer, or other item, vs. one in pristine condition, and known to be a working item.

I've seen too many auctions since getting into vintage computers, and computing, where let's say a PC Jr, which has not been tested, and is offered as-is, has a higher price then one which has been tested. The funny thing about it was that the non-working computer sold, but the known good machine didn't. That's just one example. Granted, I'm certainly no expert on the value of some peripherals, but I do know an 8 bit VGA board would be much more desirable than a CGA. So if a computer were to be listed, someone would purchase that computer over one that didn't have that particular adapter.

I hope this clears up any confusion I may have caused. If now, I'll have to see if there is another way to describe my question.

 

[bettablue]

What I'm having trouble with is the word "it" being used in an unusual way. I think it would be nice if Tom was to rewrite the question using more mainstream grammar.

Done! I re-wrote the original post and included an example, so I hope that clears things up a bit.

Also, if I've not edited it properly for the forums, I do apologize.

 

[SomeGuy]

I've seen too many auctions since getting into vintage computers, and computing, where let's say a PC Jr, which has not been tested, and is offered as-is, has a higher price then one which has been tested. The funny thing about it was that the non-working computer sold, but the known good machine didn't. That's just one example.

Well, now that is an entire different leaky capacitor can of worms.
On eBay, often when people sell something "as-is" or untested, it will actually work fine. In contrast you have people posing as experts and saying something works %100.00000000, yet it might still crater on you or not meet your needs. Either way it is a gamble with about the same probability of outcome. The "for parts" or "as-is" sellers are just shaking off any responsibility if it doesn't work for you.

So why would a "for parts" computer on eBay outsell a "tested" one? There are a variety of reasons that are really specific to the nature of selling and eBay.

Perhaps the parts seller included 20 very clear pictures of inside and out, letting the buyer see the item is in very good condition, while the tested seller only has one blurry photo of the item stuffed against a junk pile.

Perhaps the part seller used lots of good keywords to describe the item, that attracted many people searching for similar items. In contrast perhaps the tested seller just said "Vintage computer - tested and works - see pictures".

Perhaps the parts seller started at $30 and then got people in a bidding frenzy that ends at $234, where the tested seller has it sitting out there at for a buy it now of $100 and people just go "ho hum, thats too much".

Perhaps the auctions aren't really identical. Perhaps the parts one includes some rare I/O card or software that certain individuals are after. Or perhaps the "tested" one includes monitor, printer, and manuals that the buyer doesn't want.

There is also the aspect that some people might get more enjoyment from fixing up a broken computer rather than just plopping a new tested one down.

Granted, I'm certainly no expert on the value of some peripherals, but I do know an 8 bit VGA board would be much more desirable than a CGA. So if a computer were to be listed, someone would purchase that computer over one that didn't have that particular adapter.

That, as with all things vintage, is subjective
Depending on someones wants or needs, they may find a CGA card, or even a specific CGA card more desirable than others, and if the item is something that doesn't come up much, then the buyer may wind up throwing a lot of money at it to get exactly what they want.