www.manual-haven.com

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

You all collect old computers (or what in the h*¤_ are you doing here), so you all know the situation. Wow, I found this magnificent machine, veeery retro, very cool. Only - umm - how do I do whachamacallit? If only I had a manual!

For a long time, I've been crossing my fingers, praying every night and leaving blank pages of paper under my pillow for the instructions-fairy, hoping for a web-site with the prime goal of supplying manuals for obsolete machines in some standard format. Like for instance PDF, which is nice for supplying both the text and illustrations.

I was thinking maybe this would be a good venture for all us people with too much room and time.. It would require hosting with someone who has their own server of course - not like me who pay a ridiculous amount each year for an equally ridiculous amount of web-space. There'd be the subject of the domain, which'd cost something too.. Maybe hosting could be done by each individual preparing the PDF (or whichever format chosen) - as in: I make a PDF of the C64 and VIC-20 manuals, so they're hosted at my space, but linked from the main site; Erik makes a PDF of the Altair 8080 manual and hosts it...And so on...

Of course, a project such as this could expand beyond old computers, to old synthesizers, shaving kits, kitchen appliances and answering machines...

Or is this whole project dead from the start due to copyrights??

I'd like to know what you people think...

 

[Erik]

This is actually a very good idea and might work well.

There are already several sites that host manuals for various classes of machines (PDPs, Atari, etc.) but there are none that I know of that provide access to a large variety of old computer manuals, data sheets, price lists and the like.

I'd love to host something like that directly but the bandwith and resource requirements would quickly escalate beyond my ability to support. My current hosting provider would not appreciate my bandwith usage spiking like that and to pay for a dedicated server would cost hundreds a year or more.

The file sharing scheme you propose is, therefore, a far more equitable alternative.

It could very well be hosted by an interface as simple as this message board. Just put a documents message area with boards specific to whatever you want and post messages with links to and descriptions of each manual offered. The search feature could then be used to identify what you are looking for when you need it.

This is even easier to do in vBulletin then in PHPBB and lately I've been seriously considering paying for the vBulletin product for the additional features as well as the improved support. . .

Are there any other manual hounds out there interested in pooling our resources to create a source on the net?

Erik

 

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

Well, the interface would be a key element. You know these bulletin-systems better than I do, Erik, so I won't argue with you. The thing I imagine is something along the lines of an organised list, sorted by manufacturer and machine name (or model), and - of course - with a search facility..I don't know if this can be done with these systems...

...At any rate, I also think the file-sharing solution is the best, or at least the cheapest. But I can't imagine why people like us (heh!) wouldn't want something like this. It'd be a mutual charity, sortof...I contribute the manual for Whatchama by Whoshama, and in return I get access to the manuals for Wuzzat by Hoozat and the fabled Thingamabob by Wussisname... It's a win-win deal :D ...

At any rate, I'm glad I've got at least someone thinking it's a good idea :wink: ...

 

[Erik]

Give me a week or two and let me see if I can find time to work up an example of what I'm talking about. . .

Erik

 

[mbbrutman]

You have copyright issues.

You also have a tremendous amount of work. I'm thinking of converting all of my PCjr documentation to PDF format, but it is a daunting task.

To do a good job you need to do OCR (optical character recognition). Taking a 30 page manual and doing 300 DPI scans is going to be unweildy, and prevents you from doing searches. Good OCR software costs money and takes time ...

My suggestion - pick a small corner of the world and try to fix that. If you suceed, then branch out. (i.e.: Pick a favorite machine and start scanning!)


Mike

 

[Erik]

You have copyright issues.

Agreed, in some areas. Not in others.

MITS isn't going to be suing anyone. IBM and Microsoft might.

You also have a tremendous amount of work...

My suggestion - pick a small corner of the world and try to fix that. If you suceed, then branch out. (i.e.: Pick a favorite machine and start scanning!)

I couldn't agree more. But that's the beauty of this suggestion. If a dozen interested people picked their own little corner of the world we'd have a nice chunk of scanned, searchable manuals online fairly quickly. If the fire spread, so to speak, more would be added quickly.

Also, we're not talking entirely about new efforts. There are a large number of scanned documents already on the web and having a central location for them would be a boon in itself.

Erik

 

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

You have copyright issues.

MITS isn't going to be suing anyone. IBM and Microsoft might.

Also, maybe, some copyright-issues could be dealt with by making the appropriate disclaimers.. "Material presented in this file copyrighted by yadi-yada..." We have to consider that maybe a company like IBM might actually appreciate that they don't have to answer geeky collectors questions about machines they've forgotten themselves. Of course, on the other hand, some companies can be stubborn!

You also have a tremendous amount of work...

I couldn't agree more. But that's the beauty of this suggestion. If a dozen interested people picked their own little corner of the world we'd have a nice chunk of scanned, searchable manuals online fairly quickly. If the fire spread, so to speak, more would be added quickly.

All that's required, so to speak, is maybe an announcement-board connected to the site, so that two people won't start working on the same manual, and as such wasting one of the peoples time...

 

[sonic2000gr]

You could probably ask for permission from the companies involved before transferring a printed manual to say PDF format and distributing it. Probably most of them will have no problem with distribution of vintage manuals. Some may even encourage you to do it. And yes, a good disclaimer should be included.
In my site I have the complete TI Extended BASIC manual in MS Word format. (It is also available from download from www.99er.net)
I decided to scan this (very important if I may add) manual when I saw how many of these cartridges are sold in ebay and most of them are without manuals. Since it is a programming language it is useless without the manual.
Scanning and OCR was not an easy task, but the end result is superb. I maintained the original formatting of the manual (page sizes and numbering). I used the OCR that came with my AGFA scanner and was quite pleased with it.
In short, manual scanning is possilbe. It is a somewhat daunting process, and requires patience and (a lot of) free time.

 

[Terry Yager]

i have neither the time or the inclination to scan any manuals. what i do have is the postage to send my manuals to someone who could scan them them\n send themback. i have a couple of manuals that i have not seen anywhere else on the net. if someone is interested in scanning the manuals for the texas instruments cc-40 and the hewlet packard 75-c let me l\know and I can loan them out.

--T

 

[mbbrutman]

I work for IBM, and believe me, IBM has much better things to do than to be looking for copyright violations of obsolete manuals. That's not an official position, but they're pretty lenient about it. Remember, these people used to give away the source code to their operating systems to their customers.

In places where I have used IBM pictures or literature, I have given them appropriate credit - that's part of the fair use provision of copyright law. I've not been inclined to put a 400pg manual on the net though - too much work. Smaller manuals, probably.

MS on the other hand can be nasty. The person who ran the pcjr.org website wanted to post the drivers for the MS Booster, which was a mouse and memory sidecar from 1984. They declined him permission. It's not like there were trade secrets in there ...

Software is copyrighted too. How do driverguide.com or other sites get around posting other people's software? The answer lies there - it's a precendent.


Mike

 

[barryp]

I've seen many downloadable manuals;

The ones that are scanned (.jpg, .gif, etc.) can never be mistaken for original and are large.

OCR conversion, or plain typing, results in a much smaller file to download but is a royal pain to create.

Our local users group tried this sort of thing but never got much done.

 

[Erik]

The Online Documentation Project

The Online Documentation Project

I started a message area for online documenation. Please check it out as a follow-up to this thread. See this message for additional detail.

Hopefully we can get a little momentum behind this great idea.

Erik

 

[olddataman]

The Manual Project

The Manual Project

Now I'm not sure if this belongs here or in Erik's new cubby hole, but I'm here so I will stay here for now.
I have a lot of manuals and other documentation that I keep wondering how to use. Most of it has been offered on Ebay at lest once, with no takers, but I think it is to valuable to throw away.
Some examples are: Manuals for Qume, Diablo, NEC, CITOH and a couple other Daisy Wheel printers.
Manuals for CITOH, Epson, NEC, OKI-Data, Texas Instruments and a few other matrix printers.
Manuals for a half dozen or so CRT Terminals (including one or two that I wrote, so we know that they are not only accurate but are the best of all!)
About 40 to 50 Bell System Tech Bulletins from the years between about 1965 to 1973.
A source listing with addendums and corrections of Don Tarbells Basic Language.
This is just a sample.Some of the stuff I have has been stored so long that I can't remember it.

I'm retired and disabled, but have a good computer or two (Dells) to work with, a decent, inexpensive, scanner and one or two OCR programs of the type that come on somones system disk, and which I must admit I know very little at this point in time. But if this system gets off the ground, it is the ideal place to offer them to people with a need, and I obviously have plenty of time. SO PUT ME DOWN AS AN INTERESTED PERSON.