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Youngest 8086/8088 PC?

I think there were s-100 systems with 8085/8086 processors being made or sold in China in the 90's. Anyone know Chinese vintage computing history? The ACE Computer Enterprise exported them to China perhaps.

Hi Bill,
I never knew any S-100 manufacturers actually survived into the 1990's. I thought S-100 as a format was basically extinct by the late 1980's once the inexpensive Taiwanese PC/XT clones appeared. It does raise some interesting questions as to which S-100 manufacturer was the "last one standing" and if any survived in specialty markets for a longer time.

Even in "Computer Shopper", BYTE, and other period magazines, S-100 became rare after 1987. Almost a total wipe-out. To find that they were still being made in China is stunning!

Any more information on them? Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch
 
I sure learned a lot in this tread! I had no idea that 80186 was used in PCs, I always thought it was just for embedded applications.

I guess what I really wanted to ask was what is "Youngest 8086/8087 100% IBM compatible PC"?

As far as I know now, it is probably IBM PS/2 models with 8086 CPUs. The only question is when the production ceased for those models? My gut feeling tells me it was in 1989, but I really have no idea.
 
I'd say the last PC would likely be some sort of clone from a lesser known manufacturer around 1992ish. I recall finding an XT class Mobo with a 1991 BIOS date and a 1992 build date. It was half the length of a normal XT board, had some built in periphery, but was standard XT form factor board otherwise.

I've always seen it like this...
PC/XT Class (8088-186) - 1981-1992
AT Class (80286) - 1984-1993
386 Class - 1986-1997
486 Class - 1989-2004

I'm basing my 486 class observation on how long Windows 3.1x websites were still up pushing Calmira and/or updating the performance and "modernitity" so one could continue running Windows 3.1x on the hardware it was designed to run on. When I got online in 2001, there were a LOT of 486/Win31 centric websites about "battling the software bloat" and whatnot with an old 486 and Windows 3.1x on it.
 
The 80C88/86 was used well into the 90s on laptops, primarily because it was rather frugal on power consumption. The Toshiba T1200 was manufactured through 1992. In the UK, the Psion MC600 wasn't (80C86) wasn't introduced until 1990--I don't know when production was halted.

The HP 200LX from 1993 has already been mentioned.

The Soviet Poisk made its debut in 1991.
 
The Soviet Poisk made its debut in 1991.

I wonder if any of these Soviet PC clones ever made it into U.S? Was it 100% compatible with IBM PC, or was is hardcoded to display only Cyrillic letters :)?
I wonder where the CPUs were manufactured.
 
Tandy 1400 laptops and I think a later model used V20's c.1991. The UK education special 'RM PC-186' was available as late as 1992 (and broadly IBM compatible by that stage).

The 186 itself was available until only a few years back, complete with an FPU able to run 387 code by then.
 
I sure learned a lot in this tread! I had no idea that 80186 was used in PCs, I always thought it was just for embedded applications.

I guess what I really wanted to ask was what is "Youngest 8086/8087 100% IBM compatible PC"?

As far as I know now, it is probably IBM PS/2 models with 8086 CPUs. The only question is when the production ceased for those models? My gut feeling tells me it was in 1989, but I really have no idea.

The AMD 8086-based Tandy 1000RL desktop was sold from 1990 to 1992. Tandy also had the NEC V20-based 1100FD laptop that lasted until at least 1994.
 
I think we have beat this thread to death, but then it occurred to me that the Brother word processors of the early 90's were probably still 8086. I used to use mine as a PC, if you put a DOS disk in the disk drive the system would boot to DOS. Did anyone else do that trick? It was a surprise to me at the time. I used a different word processor in it just to be different. Not sure of the exact date of the Brother WP's that allowed for this trick, but there was no reason why they needed to change a WP from 8086 even into the 90's, until these as a class of "computer" became completely defunct.
 
Yes, the Tandy 1000 RL was definitely one of the last 8086s. It is also probably among the fastest (9.44 MHz) and lightest (10.2 pounds). It runs silently as well. Tandy put a lot of extra features into the 1000 RL like 16-color graphics, digital sound, joystick ports, etc. and it was relatively inexpensive for a PC, so I don't think customers minded that it was still an 8086.
 
Yes, the Tandy 1000 RL was definitely one of the last 8086s. It is also probably among the fastest (9.44 MHz) and lightest (10.2 pounds). It runs silently as well. Tandy put a lot of extra features into the 1000 RL like 16-color graphics, digital sound, joystick ports, etc. and it was relatively inexpensive for a PC, so I don't think customers minded that it was still an 8086.

With MS-DOS and DeskMate in ROM, it also has to be one of the fastest-booting desktop PCs of all time: a cold boot takes less than 2 seconds from power-on to DOS prompt. Adding a hard drive actually slows it down, because it has to wait for the drive to spin up and initialize!
 
The AMD 8086-based Tandy 1000RL desktop was sold from 1990 to 1992. Tandy also had the NEC V20-based 1100FD laptop that lasted until at least 1994.

And I know a poor guy who bought one in 1992, and fairly late in 1992 at that. He bought it as a college freshman, hoping it would get him through college, not knowing it was obsolete before he bought it. He asked me his sophomore year what it would take to get Windows 3.1 running on it and I had to deliver the bad news to him.

My high school bought a lab full of PS/2 Model 25s and Model 30s in 1990 or 1991. They bought them to replace Olympia manual typewriters in their typing/keyboarding classes. They paid a fortune for them, and had no idea what they were buying was going to be outmoded so quickly.

At my first full-time job administering a network for a state university, we still had some IBM Model 30s kicking around in 1998. We were using them as glorified dumb terminals. We put network cards in them, loaded up a TCP/IP stack and a Telnet client, and I wrote a series of batch files to provide a menu so you could get onto the school's Unix cluster for e-mail, or onto Lexis-Nexis, the school library card catalog, and anything else useful that we could think of that worked via Telnet. And we loaded Wordperfect 5.1 and a few other popular DOS-based programs, because we could. We disposed of them in 1998 as part of our Y2k project. Y2K didn't matter for what these machines were doing, but we were under pressure to do something, anything, for Y2K, so basically anything that didn't have a 486 CPU in it got scrapped in the name of Y2K compliance, whether it was compliant or not. I'm sure sometime in 1999 they raised the bar to anything that didn't have a Pentium CPU in it.

We had a couple of professors who would be perfectly happy writing their books on an 8088 or 8086 with Wordperfect 5.1 even today if someone was willing to keep the hardware running reliably. They regarded computer skills like using the library--something you learned once, and weren't interested in learning Windows, learning MS Word or even the Windows version of Wordperfect, and they actually resented the 3-year upgrade cycle. Learning new technology was a distraction from their serious research.
 
I wonder if any of these Soviet PC clones ever made it into U.S? Was it 100% compatible with IBM PC, or was is hardcoded to display only Cyrillic letters :)?
I wonder where the CPUs were manufactured.

A number of IBM PC compatible computers were made in Soviet Union and the rest of East Bloc. Early and more famous examples are ES184x series and Iskra 1030 were very IBM PC/XT compatible, at least from the software point of view. ES1840 is more like IBM PC - without HDD, was released in 1986, and ES1841 is more like XT, it came with 20MB-40MB MFM HDD and was released in 1987. Also Iskra 1030 / 1030M was released at about the same time (2nd half of 80's). All these computers featured KR1810VM86 processor (Intel 8086 clone) with 16-bit data bus, and so they were just a bit faster than the original IBM PC/XT design that used 8088 with 8-bit data bus.

It also was an attempt to create cheap school/home computers compatible with IBM PC. Poisk computer was one of the results. While it featured KR1810VM88 (Intel 8088 clone), it had limited IBM PC compatibility. For example video controller supported 640x200 graphics mode only, and CGA modes were emulated in software using hardware hooks (NMI?!). It also was very minimalistic - the system module included cassette interface only. Floppy and hard drive controllers were supplied as optional extension modules. Later they released more PC compatible models (Poisk 2?).

Several soviet plants manufactured KR1810VM88 and KR1810VM86 CPUs. Usually it is possible to determine the plant by the logo on the chip. One of the more famous plants is the Ukrainian "Kvazar" (its logo is a diode symbol in a circle). It looks like they are still making 8088/8086 compatible processors: http://www.kvazar.com/images/stories/production/ims1.pdf Other plants are Kvantor and Rodon. Czech company TESLA also made 8086 clones (MHB8086)

I doubt any of these computers were officially exported anywhere except of the East Bloc, and especially not to US :). First of all because lack of the business reason and also due to licensing problems. Soviet ICs were not licensed clones of western analogs (and so they might be considered a counterfeit parts), and software was mostly copied from western designs.

Regarding Cyrillic letters - obviously Soviet computers had them. Two different encodings were popular in IBM compatible computers - KOI-8R and Alternative. KOI-8R is a "native" encoding, with Cyrillic letters starting from 0xC0 (lower case) and 0xE0 (upper case). Interestingly enough Cyrillic letters in KOI-8R are not sorted in ABC order, but instead the order matches Latin letters with similar name or population. This probably was made to simplify translation from/to KOI-7 (7-bit character set, with upper case Latin and Cyrillic letters only). The drawback of KOI-8R is that Cyrillic letters replaced a part of pseudo-graphic symbols, and programs that used these symbols looked ugly. This encoding was mostly used by soviet-made software supplied with the computers. Alternative encoding (MS DOS Code Page 866) preserved most of the pseudo-graphic symbols, it also had Cyrillic letters in ABC order. It was very popular and probably the most widely used encoding, especially for the users that used western software.
Iskra 1080 had both KOI-8R and Alternative character sets in the character generator ROM, and they were switched using a configuration register. ES1840 and ES1841 used RAM for characters 0x80 - 0xFF, and so it was possible to load any fonts there. ES1842 and later had EGA compatible graphics with software programmable character generator.
 
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While the 80186 has on-board peripherals, they aren't compatible (at least not early 1980s varieties) with the standard PC stuff. As an example, consider the Tandy 2000 or the Mindset (there were others)--they each take their own version of MS-DOS.

But the T2K in particular used very little of the '186s onboard peripherals, if any. Stare at a 2000s mobo sometime. You'll find all of the support chips that are on a 5150s mobo. The biggest reason for many IBM-incompatible's incompatibilities was the usage of say an NEC 7220 graphics chip (I can never get there prefixes right, either pd or upd), or something else entirely. And the graphics memory was in an altogether different location, not to mention the internal architecture, registers and whatnot, being totally different.

The T2K in particular was very much so BIOS and MS-DOS system call compatible. If a program was "well behaved", in the same way that all but the earliest Macintosh s/w was, that is using manufacturer provided interfaces to the hardware, it would run. A few things did run on a Tandy 2000, but not much. Most firms started tapping into the hardware directly, w/assembly language generally, and since that s/w was totally tailored for the 5150/5160 architecture, the pseudo-compatibles were left behind.

If you were to plug certain high performance graphics cards in your 5150/5160, you'd often have the same problems. Vendors like Autodesk would address this w/a patch generally, because architects, engineers and other designers couldn't get by w/CGA graphics. Most people are unaware that there were a bunch of different graphics cards for the peecee, many far superior to anything IBM offered (until the EGA/PGC). But were rarely register or memory compatible w/their lineup.

There are little funky nuances that exist that make the 80186/80188 differ from the 8088/8086, but I don't think nothing that couldn't be solved patches.

The early Ampro Little Board/PC had a 80186 (later ones, like mine, have the NEC V40), and that was for the most part totally compatible w/IBM s/w. Many manufacturers used to use it as a fast 80186, and made use of the onboard peripherals to different extents. There were oodles and oodles of 186/188s used in industrial microcontrollers. I'd like to research them *all*, but I don't even know where to start. On Vets Highway in Bohemia, Long Island, NY, I stopped in to a place for some job related reason when I was about 19 I guess. A guy had an 81086 uController right on his desk. Many many small companies did this.

One of my favorities is the Radio Electronics Magazine RE Robot Brain board (designed and built by Vesta Technology, who still is around). It used an 80188. I have the artwork, rom images, and a chum on this very board who BUILT the whole robot. I'm always so bogged down w/other stuff, I haven't had time to etch my own boards (and I have a new fandangled method of reliably doing this at home). Anyone that wants to get in on this, or building other RE computers, give me a hollar.
 
When we were putting out our own PC, it used an 80186 and an 80286

Sounds like an IBM PC/AT w/a Professional Graphics controller. Main computer - 80286 based. Graphics card(s) - 8088 based. There were a few PGC clones, one made by Vermont Microsystems, has an onboard 80188. That puppy is slim let me tell you. It only has 2 cards wrung together, as opposed to IBM's 3!

I'm kidding Chuck, as I'm sure you can guess. I don't know what the purpose was of the 80186 in your system. Doubtful it was for graphics.
 
I think we have beat this thread to death, but then it occurred to me that the Brother word processors of the early 90's were probably still 8086. I used to use mine as a PC, if you put a DOS disk in the disk drive the system would boot to DOS. Did anyone else do that trick? It was a surprise to me at the time. I used a different word processor in it just to be different. Not sure of the exact date of the Brother WP's that allowed for this trick, but there was no reason why they needed to change a WP from 8086 even into the 90's, until these as a class of "computer" became completely defunct.

Sure. Any wp was a step up from a typewriter!

Bill, were the Brother wp's you used lcd or crt?
 
I'm kidding Chuck, as I'm sure you can guess. I don't know what the purpose was of the 80186 in your system. Doubtful it was for graphics.

We offered the system two ways--with an empty 80286 socket as an MS-DOS system and with the 80286 as a Xenix system. In both cases, the 80186 handled the I/O. No graphics, however--this was a terminal (VT220-type) system only--no memory-mapped graphics. Purely for business (accounting mostly, but also word processing).
 
I know Bill Degnan personally Chuck. Otherwise that in the rare case that he has an evil clone/twin on the west coast, I know the difference between you two.

My question was if the Brother wp he used had an lcd or crt display. I passed up a nice one w/a tiny green monitor in a thrift store a while back, for 5$. Just wondering if it was the same.
 
I know Bill Degnan personally Chuck. Otherwise that in the rare case that he has an evil clone/twin on the west coast, I know the difference between you two.

My question was if the Brother wp he used had an lcd or crt display. I passed up a nice one w/a tiny green monitor in a thrift store a while back, for 5$. Just wondering if it was the same.

Understood now that you were talking about a specific Brother Wupro. Those with separate CRT monitors are useful if for no other reason that the monitor works fine with a PC monochrome adapter.
 
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