SSC
Experienced Member
It's really odd people would go on a vintage computer forum and give someone a hard time for wanting a full sized VAX. Seriously dude. Nobody considers a 4000 VLC a VAX. Nobody. Not even people that like them.
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VAX-11/730 System on eBay
- Thread starter NF6X
- Start date
It's really odd people would go on a vintage computer forum and give someone a hard time for wanting a full sized VAX. Seriously dude. Nobody considers a 4000 VLC a VAX. Nobody. Not even people that like them.
Qbus
Veteran Member
I would say it’s time to suck it up and plan a road trip! With what a specialized mover is going to cost and all the aggravation involved there is a point where you just got to go and get it yourself. Have seen Hams drive cross country to pick up larger and heavier broadcast transmitters. I know that I have driven four hundred miles each way for my Unibus systems and am getting ready for a six hundred mile trip out to Dayton. But driving across country for a truck load of Vax that would be legendary.
Virtual systems or emulators require no effort, small systems require small effort and large systems require large effort.
Virtual systems or emulators require no effort, small systems require small effort and large systems require large effort.
NF6X
Veteran Member
Those look neat, but they're just a little bit too new for me.
AK6DN
Veteran Member
I didn't give him a hard time about wanting an 11/7xx series VAX. I just pointed out you can get a 'real VAX' (and the VLC is a real hardware VAX, contrary to your opinion) that will run the same code as a 11/7xx does, for chump change. It is a single chip CMOS processor, yes, but it is no less a VAX CPU. And you can run it off a battery if you really want.
By your definition all QBUS PDP-11 systems that use a single chip processors are not 'real' PDP-11s, either.
Actually that is my criteria for collecting PDP-11s (must be discrete TTL UNIBUS boxes) but that is just my own selection criteria.
So lighten up 'dude'.
I was there in the lab in Tewksbury when the 11/730 was designed. It was a dog then and still is. My opinion, of course.
Don
NF6X
Veteran Member
I like dogs. 
What does it need for a monitor and keyboard? It doesn't appear to have a tape drive, or optical drive, so how do you load it with the operating system of your choice without another VAX?
AK6DN
Veteran Member
I have a DEC SCSI CDROM drive, I just burn a CDROM with an ISO image of NetBSD, and use the OpenVMS CDROM distribution disk.
Boot from CDROM, install to drive. No tape needed.
For booting, I just use the console port in RS232 comm mode to an external terminal.
Once the system is up and running, I can then just telnet/SSH in thru the network.
NetBSD speaks TCP/IP of course, and there is a VMS package that supports TCP/IP (telnet, ftp, etc) as well.
I don't use the internal graphics board to run DECwindows/Xwindows. To me a VAX was always a terminal interface (VT52, VT100).
AK6DN
Veteran Member
I like dogs.
Me also. Have a couple. Make fine pets. Lousy computers.
To get anywhere with the system in question it sounds like I would need to add both a SCSI hard disk AND an optical drive (e.g. SCSI CDROM), at least temporarily. Does it have to be a DEC SCSI CDROM? Or will any SCSI CDROM work?
Do you need to do anything on the VAXstation to get the console to come up on the serial port, or will it default there?
NF6X
Veteran Member
Ok, let's imagine that I will have the winning bid on this system when it closes tomorrow. It'll be my first VAX, and I'll have questions to think about during the few weeks it'll take to find its way to my home:
Will plain 4.3BSD run as-is on an 11/730? If so, how might I procure an installation tape? I understand that I can order a CD with pretty much all of the BSD releases on it for about $100, but I don't have a means to write magtapes quite yet. I should be able to do that someday on my PDP-11/44, but that project still is far from done. So, it'd be nice if I could get a bootable 4.3BSD installation tape.
I know I'll need to rebuild the capstan in the TU58 drive, but what if I find that I still can't read the included microcode tape(s) after I do that? How screwed would I be? Are 11/730 microcode tapes archived anywhere? (If not, one of my goals would be to archive whatever I have and make sure it gets preserved). Would the 11/730's TU58 tapes have the same low-level formatting as common TU58 tapes, such that I should be able to make images of them on one of my other computers with a plain old TU58 drive?
I'll want to image and archive all of the media that comes with the system as soon as I can. Assuming that I can boot up the system with whatever's already on its drives (some VMS version, I think), how would I best go about getting block-level images of all of the drives onto my modern system for archival? I don't know much about VMS yet. And if I can't boot the system with what's already on it, what might be the safest way to go about trying to image the media? Maybe I can image the RL02 packs on my PDP-11/44 once it's up and running, but I don't think I'd have any other system capable of connecting to the R80 drive.
BTW, on the subject of TU58 tapes: I have a PDT-11 (VT100 with an internal QBUS backplane and dual TU58 drive) that I'm fixing up, that will hopefully give me a way to read and write real TU58 tapes soon. The capstans need rebuilding, of course. I'm first going to try using some black latex tubing that's essentially the same as the stretchy tan-colored latex tubing as seen in wrist rockets and water weenies, but tinted black.
Will plain 4.3BSD run as-is on an 11/730? If so, how might I procure an installation tape? I understand that I can order a CD with pretty much all of the BSD releases on it for about $100, but I don't have a means to write magtapes quite yet. I should be able to do that someday on my PDP-11/44, but that project still is far from done. So, it'd be nice if I could get a bootable 4.3BSD installation tape.
I know I'll need to rebuild the capstan in the TU58 drive, but what if I find that I still can't read the included microcode tape(s) after I do that? How screwed would I be? Are 11/730 microcode tapes archived anywhere? (If not, one of my goals would be to archive whatever I have and make sure it gets preserved). Would the 11/730's TU58 tapes have the same low-level formatting as common TU58 tapes, such that I should be able to make images of them on one of my other computers with a plain old TU58 drive?
I'll want to image and archive all of the media that comes with the system as soon as I can. Assuming that I can boot up the system with whatever's already on its drives (some VMS version, I think), how would I best go about getting block-level images of all of the drives onto my modern system for archival? I don't know much about VMS yet. And if I can't boot the system with what's already on it, what might be the safest way to go about trying to image the media? Maybe I can image the RL02 packs on my PDP-11/44 once it's up and running, but I don't think I'd have any other system capable of connecting to the R80 drive.
BTW, on the subject of TU58 tapes: I have a PDT-11 (VT100 with an internal QBUS backplane and dual TU58 drive) that I'm fixing up, that will hopefully give me a way to read and write real TU58 tapes soon. The capstans need rebuilding, of course. I'm first going to try using some black latex tubing that's essentially the same as the stretchy tan-colored latex tubing as seen in wrist rockets and water weenies, but tinted black.
gslick
Veteran Member
No idea if plain 4.3BSD runs as-in on an 11/730 with 4MB of memory and an RA80 drive.
As far as getting installation tapes, if you have a working 1600BPI tape drive you could ask here for someone to create some for you.
The instructions here look fairly straightforward for creating a .TAP file with the proper file blocking structure.
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH
I have created my own PDP-11 1600BPI and 6250BPI installation tapes for 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 with a Fujistu M2444AC Pertec interface tape drive and a Computer Logics PCTD16 controller installed in a PC. I hacked together some simple MS-DOS based applications to write and read .TAP files to the tape drive through the PCTD16.
NF6X
Veteran Member
This particular 11/730 comes with a TU80 tape drive, so presumably, the machine will eventually have a working tape drive (even if I have to fix it first).
I have a Kennedy 9610 drive, which can do 800/1600/6250 and has a Pertec interface. It's not working yet… apparently, one side of the spindle motor drive blew out shortly after I got it, so the spindles only turn one way. It also had a seized cooling fan, which I've already replaced. I have a Pertec interface Unibus card in unknown operating condition, and the whole pile is slated to end up in my PDP-11/44 project. So, maybe I can eventually use that system to write a BSD boot/install tape from images, if RT-11 is able to do that.
I've only skimmed the 11/730 manuals so far. I think that the system has a Unibus interface, but I'm not sure whether it's usable in the configuration of this eBay system, vs. only being usable in a different configuration with an add-on Unibus box. I saw reference to a single Unibus SPC slot in the manuals, which makes me think it might need to be cabled to an external Unibus backplane to actually be usable. I was wondering if a SCSI adapter like we're discussing over in my other thread might be a good approach, but your comment on the absurd cost of Unibus SCSI adapters shot that idea down for now.
I have a Kennedy 9610 drive, which can do 800/1600/6250 and has a Pertec interface. It's not working yet… apparently, one side of the spindle motor drive blew out shortly after I got it, so the spindles only turn one way. It also had a seized cooling fan, which I've already replaced. I have a Pertec interface Unibus card in unknown operating condition, and the whole pile is slated to end up in my PDP-11/44 project. So, maybe I can eventually use that system to write a BSD boot/install tape from images, if RT-11 is able to do that.
I've only skimmed the 11/730 manuals so far. I think that the system has a Unibus interface, but I'm not sure whether it's usable in the configuration of this eBay system, vs. only being usable in a different configuration with an add-on Unibus box. I saw reference to a single Unibus SPC slot in the manuals, which makes me think it might need to be cabled to an external Unibus backplane to actually be usable. I was wondering if a SCSI adapter like we're discussing over in my other thread might be a good approach, but your comment on the absurd cost of Unibus SCSI adapters shot that idea down for now.
Qbus
Veteran Member
What happened? Did you get it or not? If you did get it if nothing else can’t you just load a RL disk pack with RT-11 or RSX-11? I have a SCSI card for 23 and will be looking for a way to use that although not certain how the system will recognize that card? What would the device be, not DX, DY or DL maybe something like DM? Or maybe RK?
NF6X
Veteran Member
We'll find out in a little under 3 hours!
Can either of those run on a VAX?! I've heard of PDP-11 compatibility mode (I'm not sure if the 730 retains that mode), but I thought that was to allow PDP-11 code to run under VAX operating systems as opposed to simply booting up a PDP-11 operating system from scratch. I'm interested in learning more about the compatibility mode if it's present in this machine.
I'm not up to speed on the SCSI cards yet, but if they emulate MSCP then would that be DU under RT-11?
NF6X
Veteran Member
BTW, If I win it, I'd be interested in trying to run a version of VAX/VMS that might have been on the machine if I encountered it in late 1986, which was when I started college and got my first exposure to all things DEC. Judging by the Wikipedia article on OpenVMS, that might have been a V3.x or V4.x release. Assuming that I can satisfy the licensing requirement, is there any way to find installation media for old VMS releases, other than watching eBay and hoping? I get the impression that the current OpenVMS hobbyists license program doesn't address the earlier VAX/VMS releases. The system is supposed to come with an OpenVMS 7.3 hobbyist installation, so I expect that I'd perform the OpenVMS hobbyist license ritual anyway, but I'd be most interested in OSes that were around in late 1986: VAX/VMS 3.x/4.x and 4.2BSD/4.3BSD.
The 11/730 has PDP-11 compatibility mode. As far as I recall you won't be able to run a PDP-11 operating system because all interrupts and traps will vector to native VAX mode, and the PDP-11 memory management registers are missing, etc. I can't really remember, but it is also possible that certain instructions will trap rather than execute (e.g. HALT, RTI, etc, commercial instruction set, maybe even floating point).
On an 11/780 the console processor is an LSI-11, so I'm told that you could actually run RT-11 or RSX-11M on that CPU, although I never had an 11/780 to try it.
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gslick
Veteran Member
So, sold for an even $1000 with just two bidders.
Were you the (un)lucky one?
Were you the (un)lucky one?
NF6X
Veteran Member
Yes, I'm the (un)lucky one! I thought it would sell closer to $2,500, so I'm pretty happy.
Another collector who lives in the area has offered to pick it up for me and palletize it so I can have it shipped from his loading dock at work. Cool!! That pretty much made it practical for me to bid on it at all. I'm guessing it should be making my floor sag in 3 weeks or so.
I signed up for DECUServe this morning, and I'll apply for an OpenVMS hobbyist license once I know the machine's serial number.
Another collector who lives in the area has offered to pick it up for me and palletize it so I can have it shipped from his loading dock at work. Cool!! That pretty much made it practical for me to bid on it at all. I'm guessing it should be making my floor sag in 3 weeks or so.
I signed up for DECUServe this morning, and I'll apply for an OpenVMS hobbyist license once I know the machine's serial number.
gslick
Veteran Member
Well that should keep you happy and busy for a while, until an available 11/780 shows up somewhere.
Looking forward to seeing some good pictures of everything when you finally receive it and following along with you getting it up and running. Sounds like you'll be busy with more than enough projects for a while.
Looking forward to seeing some good pictures of everything when you finally receive it and following along with you getting it up and running. Sounds like you'll be busy with more than enough projects for a while.