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VAX-11/730 System on eBay

NF6X said:
I'd be all over this like stink on a monkey if it was within 250 miles of me. Sadly, I'll just need to drool over it from afar.
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It's going to be very, very hard for me to resist this one. And, I don't need it. I really don't need it.
 
The seller told me that he's open to having it picked up by an LTL shipper. Dang it, there goes my credit card balance! Luckily, KC9UDX will have a big advantage when it comes to bidding and pickup. ;)
 
This is the same 11/730 I have, except mine subs the TS05 for the TU80 and includes an additional BA11 box for add'l cards. Should be instructive to see what it goes for.
 
The system is listed as having an R80 hard drive, but I haven't found documentation for an R80 drive on Bitsavers; I've just found documentation for an RA80. Are those different drives?

I've also been reading a bit about OpenVMS hobbyist licensing. I never really liked VMS much back in the day. I took an immediate liking to UNIX (particularly the BSD varieties), and VMS always seemed very arcane and cumbersome to me. Granted, I spent as little time as I could on VMS systems back then. If and when I finally obtain a VAX, I wonder whether I should bother running OpenVMS to learn more about it and maybe even find a way to like it, or just go straight to BSD?

I gather that the free OpenVMS license would require me to jump through a minor (?) set of hoops initially, and then jump through some more hoops annually to renew the licenses. Up until the owners of OpenVMS no longer issue licenses for whatever reason, and then the hardware turns into a rather large brick as far as VMS is concerned. Do I understand that correctly? The whole idea of requiring licensing and annual renewal just for an operating system (particularly for an unsupported operating system on 30+ year old hardware) really rubs me the wrong way, and strongly smells of bovine excrement to me. Is my attitude out of adjustment on this matter?
 
NF6X said:
The system is listed as having an R80 hard drive, but I haven't found documentation for an R80 drive on Bitsavers; I've just found documentation for an RA80. Are those different drives?
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The box the disk is in looks the same. Probably the same HDA unit, but different control electronics. Apparently the 11/730's IDC controls the R80 so you don't need a UDA50 MSCP controller like you would with an RA8x.

The whole idea of requiring licensing and annual renewal just for an operating system (particularly for an unsupported operating system on 30+ year old hardware) really rubs me the wrong way, and strongly smells of bovine excrement to me. Is my attitude out of adjustment on this matter?
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I don't know. What is the attraction of this VAX for you? It will be very slow to do anything. If you want to run BSD then an old 486 will run about 100 times faster (I recently rebuilt a 64MB 486DX2/80 with FreeBSD and it is too slow for me, even at my most patient). If you want to have an old VAX running VMS then you can do it, and jumping through the license hoops will make it fully legal.
 
Uniballer said:
What is the attraction of this VAX for you? It will be very slow to do anything. If you want to run BSD then an old 486 will run about 100 times faster (I recently rebuilt a 64MB 486DX2/80 with FreeBSD and it is too slow for me, even at my most patient). If you want to have an old VAX running VMS then you can do it, and jumping through the license hoops will make it fully legal.
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Anyone ever told you speed is not everything?
I've my MicroVAX sitting next to me and it lacks functioning tape drive, and it has no ethernet at the moment, but i still love to boot it up randomly sometimes, just to hear it working. I know the disk seek sound like my hands right now, i could almost say it's my favourite song. What's so cool about a 486? If you want speed, get a Pentium.
 
Jack. said:
Anyone ever told you speed is not everything?
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You're reading too much into what you thought I said. What I meant was that if the OP is to find value in the old 11/730 it will probably be the things that make it different than other machines, and I was actually asking to find out what the OP liked about the 11/730. If you just want to run BSD then why on a VAX (unless you have nostalgia for a specific version running on a VAX)? For me, the essence of VAX-itude has always been that it ran VMS...

If you just want a VAX (any VAX) check this out. I have no knowledge of or relationship to the vendor. There are many more out there.

I've my MicroVAX sitting next to me and it lacks functioning tape drive, and it has no ethernet at the moment, but i still love to boot it up randomly sometimes, just to hear it working. I know the disk seek sound like my hands right now, i could almost say it's my favourite song.
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I remember watching TU55's spin DECtapes on a straight 8 when I was in school. It was cool at the time, and I guess I have a little nostalgia for it. But I wouldn't want to spend much time doing that again. I owned and used a PDP-11/73 running RSX as my primary computer for probably longer than any system since. But I found I no longer turned it on once I didn't need to run PDP-11 software anymore. So I let it go some years later.

I think a MicroVAX is a nice machine for a hobbyist, if you enjoy it.

For myself, I have little nostalgia for VAXen. VAX/VMS was useful, and I ported a fair-sized software base to it from RSX. I was pretty disappointed to find that the 11/750 ran my software (in native mode) about as fast as an 11/44. The biggest VAX I ever had to myself was a 3100/80; the smallest was an 11/725 (same CPU as the 11/730). By 1991 I had ported more or less the same software base to UNIX that I had ported to VMS and started shipping 80386 systems to customers. After that I only did VAX or ALPHA when the customer specifically asked for it.

What's so cool about a 486? If you want speed, get a Pentium.
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Nothing. I went through my junk box and found enough working parts to build a 486 system that could run BSD. I tested some current software I've been using and it will compile and run on the 486 (BTW - the C compiler on FreeBSD 4.x and earlier won't do -std=c99). But it is too slow for me to enjoy using it at this point (It was great back in the day, though). I only brought it up because I thought it made a comparison that many could relate to. And I do have a Pentium. And a K6-2. And a P3, a P4 an Athlon, etc. up to some fairly recent i5 machines. I even have a couple of 386 boards which seem to more or less work (do you want one?).
 
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Most of my experience with VAXen has been on machines running 4.2 or 4.3 BSD. So, I'd be interested in running 4.3 BSD on whatever VAX-11 machine I eventually adopt.

If I use VMS at all, I'd be more interested in running a VMS version that's contemporary to the hardware than a more modern OpenVMS release. Would OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses work with older VMS releases from the early to mid 1980s?
 
NF6X said:
If I use VMS at all, I'd be more interested in running a VMS version that's contemporary to the hardware than a more modern OpenVMS release. Would OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses work with older VMS releases from the early to mid 1980s?
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Wasn't the VMS license mechanism different in earlier versions? I have some V4.4 and V5.4 installation tapes on TK50 cartridges and along with that set I have this tape:

AQ-FP58A-BN MICROVMS LIC KEY TK50 1-8

I don't know whether that works for V4.4 or V5.4, or both. I haven't bothered to try to read and image that tape to see exactly what is on it because I hate TK50 tapes and it would probably just get destroyed trying to read it. I think it is something completely different than the current license PAK mechanism. There is probably a good description of this someone out on the net that I should go look for sometime.
 
Uniballer said:
What I meant was that if the OP is to find value in the old 11/730 it will probably be the things that make it different than other machines, and I was actually asking to find out what the OP liked about the 11/730. If you just want to run BSD then why on a VAX (unless you have nostalgia for a specific version running on a VAX)? For me, the essence of VAX-itude has always been that it ran VMS...
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Sorry for being a bit rude, guess I didn't really get your point.
Well, the VAX-itude is not just into the OS but into the machine itself. Personally, I think there are three major things you can consider into a vintage system (in scrambled order):
1. Aestethical condition: the machine is better if it's good looking, since it makes a nice display in your house.
2. Hardware: the machine must be fully usable with whatever OS it was intended to be originally shipped, and maybe even more. If it's not working, it must be serviceable. Else there is no fun at all.
3. Software: you must be able to boot something on the machine, else it's pretty useless.

Uniballer said:
If you just want a VAX (any VAX) check this out. I have no knowledge of or relationship to the vendor. There are many more out there.
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I have the MicroVAX3300 and the VAXStation3100, it's enough for me right now :D

Uniballer said:
Nothing. I went through my junk box and found enough working parts to build a 486 system that could run BSD. I tested some current software I've been using and it will compile and run on the 486 (BTW - the C compiler on FreeBSD 4.x and earlier won't do -std=c99). But it is too slow for me to enjoy using it at this point (It was great back in the day, though). I only brought it up because I thought it made a comparison that many could relate to. And I do have a Pentium. And a K6-2. And a P3, a P4 an Athlon, etc. up to some fairly recent i5 machines. I even have a couple of 386 boards which seem to more or less work (do you want one?).
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I built a Socket 7 Pentium MMX-based cheapo terminal system wich directly boots a DOS diskette with Telix on it. It's the cheapest crap i have, but it works farily well.
Speaking of Intel, I have: 8086, 386, Pentium, Centrino Duo and my i7. (Nah, i'm selling Socket 7 stuff myself. I'd consider trading a Socket 7 board for a 386 though ;))
 
NF6X said:
...If I use VMS at all, I'd be more interested in running a VMS version that's contemporary to the hardware than a more modern OpenVMS release. Would OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses work with older VMS releases from the early to mid 1980s?
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I can think of no reason the machine could not run Original VMS under it's original license. What other rights might be conferred by HP nowadays, I am not sure and would be interested to hear.
 
RSX11M+ said:
I can think of no reason the machine could not run Original VMS under it's original license. What other rights might be conferred by HP nowadays, I am not sure and would be interested to hear.
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If I obtain a random dusty old VAX, quite possibly without functioning original disks, how do I get the original VMS license(s) for it? Do early to mid 1980s versions of VMS enforce licensing with some sort of license file, and do those licenses have an expiration date?
 
I asked the seller if he would be able to palletize the system if I bought a pair of good pallets, strapping, pallet wrap, etc. and had it drop shipped to him. Unfortunately, he says he's not able to get it up onto pallets, and he also added that there's an 8" step to go up on the way out. He says it wasn't palletized when he got it, and from his description it sounds like it arrived by padded van shipment.

Well, this is making it sound even less likely that I might buy it and have it shipped to me.

I've used FreightQuote before for LTL shipping, but I don't know if they do padded van shipment, and if they deal with more specialized shippers who can pick up a naked large computer system and prepare it for shipping. I think it would probably be prohibitively expensive for me, anyway.

Well, this system looks nearly ideal to satisfy my VAX craving without the serious commitment of an 11/780, but it's just in the wrong place for me. :(
 
NF6X said:
If I obtain a random dusty old VAX, quite possibly without functioning original disks, how do I get the original VMS license(s) for it? Do early to mid 1980s versions of VMS enforce licensing with some sort of license file, and do those licenses have an expiration date?
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According to this table LMF (License Management Facility) was introduced in VMS version V5.0 in May 1988.
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt

So I believe OpenVMS hobbyist licenses should work as far back as VMS version V5.0. Prior to that you may need a different form of license installation. I don't have any direct experience with installing older versions myself. (Well maybe I did a V4.x install on a MicroVAX some 25 years ago when it was current, but I don't remember the details of that now).
 
AK6DN said:
You need to pickup one (or two) of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-DIGITAL...mputing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item461eca4c4f
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Nah, those just don't appeal to me at all. But thanks for the suggestion. It would be a much more practical machine to buy if I was a much more practical (and sane) person. :)

Speaking of things that don't appeal to me at all, I have a stack of Alpha-based DEC systems that came along for the ride with a "free - come pick it up" deal (which also included many other items which I was very happy to adopt). I've offered them up for free on CCtalk with no signs of interest. Possibly because I'm offering them for local pickup only and nobody who wants them is nearby, and possibly because there just isn't much interest in that family right now. I don't want to expend much effort on them (and hence, the local pickup restriction), but I'll continue sitting on them for the time being in hopes that somebody will fall in love with them and save them from the scrappers.
 
NF6X said:
Nah, those just don't appeal to me at all. But thanks for the suggestion. It would be a much more practical machine to buy if I was a much more practical (and sane) person. :)
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If you want something less practical but more cool this might be more interesting if still available. A bit of a drive for you to pick up though. Still not as unpractical and cool as a full sized VAX.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/4431895635.html
 
gslick said:
If you want something less practical but more cool this might be more interesting if still available. A bit of a drive for you to pick up though. Still not as unpractical and cool as a full sized VAX.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/4431895635.html
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Sadly, that's still too practical for me. It's the VAX-11 machines that excite me, in part because they're what I had exposure to "back in the day". From most to least interesting, the ones that appeal to me are 11/78x, 11/730, 11/750, 11/725. Newer DEC machines just don't interest me at all (with the possible exception of newer PDP-11/LSI-11 machines, if there are any). I can't quite explain why, but they just don't.
 
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