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Back to dial-up in 2021!

maxtherabbit said:
Is it even possible to get a true copper loop phone line anymore?
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Its still the norm in the UK as most internet is delivered over ADSL or FTTC so needs a copper pair to deliver to the home. Some places where cable TV was installed there is Cable.
Its planned to remove this as FTTP is installed but I have no date for that.
 
My last dialup was 'Mindspring' which I used until DSL became available in my locale. It was solid and seldom ever had any dropouts. I don't remember the exact date, but AT&T had a 'deal' on a second line if you went with their DSL. Being that I had satellite tv, I had DSL up until about 5 years ago when I dumped it for Comcast.
 
With CenturyLink here, you can still opt for a POTS connection--but often your wires wind up at a terminal where there's a VoiP box. Since a voice line here costs almost twice what a VDSL+ connection costs, you might as well have your own VoIP box. We use the ones from Obihai.
 
ChrisUnionNJ said:
The last Dial up's I used were compuserve and AOL
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AT&T Worldnet for me. That was a very long time ago. I still kind of remember using Prodigy on my new 286 back in the day (2400 baud).

Out of curiosity did anyone come out with anything better then 56K over a copper phone line before DSL took over?
 
Unknown_K said:
AT&T Worldnet for me. That was a very long time ago. I still kind of remember using Prodigy on my new 286 back in the day (2400 baud).

Out of curiosity did anyone come out with anything better then 56K over a copper phone line before DSL took over?
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I had ISDN for a long time which in the UK was 2 x 64K voice/data and 16k signalling over a normal exchange copper pair, so you get 128k but paid for two calls. (no free local calling in Europe)
Call setup time was better than 1 second and and the 64k was rock solid fully error corrected so you could use it for streaming high quality audio.
Because you always had the signalling available and call setup time was short you could nice tricks like only bring up a link when needed (no windows updates in those times) or have both links up for data but drop one when a phone call arrived. Also had sub-addressing so you can address multiple devices by the same number, e.g. FAX , Voice and Data.

It was very popular in Europe. In the UK it was a little expensive but in Germany it was the standard offering. They phased it out in 2018 and as far as I know only offer DSL based services with no voice on the phone line.
 
Back when, I investigated ISDN, but apparently, there's a wire-mile issue and the RBOC wasn't very responsive on that.
Sprint offered me a T1 line for $1K/month, which was a little steep for the time.
 
jafir said:
...but I can see the box at the and of the street. It looks like it’s been hit by every car and truck in the neighborhood and most of the time is covered in a plastic bag. I cannot imagine the quality is what it once was.
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Sorry, but this made me chuckle. Yeah, probably should skip. LOL
 
Chuck(G) said:
Back when, I investigated ISDN, but apparently, there's a wire-mile issue and the RBOC wasn't very responsive on that.
Sprint offered me a T1 line for $1K/month, which was a little steep for the time.
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Yes there is a distance limit on ISDN, typically 5 or 6Km. Really its a group delay and an attenuation limit. This caused issues in the UK where in some places where the Post Office and British Telecom had installed aluminium cable to save money. This stuff continues to cause issues as it limits ADSL services. As usual the British approach of "lets do it as cheaply as possible and hope it works" triumphed over "lets do this in a well engineered way, with adequate margins so we are sure it will work" ....
 
I am using DSL right now.... I went to a friends once who had fibre. Had no idea such speeds were possible. To be frank people are happy with DSL, only the very wealthy can afford fibre not to mention how much it depends on location. At least the phones stay awake when the power goes out. I live at the end of the electricity pole. The local electricity supplier got booked recently (I reported it) when I discovered it was changing voltage by +-10V every 2 seconds, not ideal :/.
 
Alsilisk said:
I am using DSL right now.... I went to a friends once who had fibre. Had no idea such speeds were possible. To be frank people are happy with DSL, only the very wealthy can afford fibre not to mention how much it depends on location. At least the phones stay awake when the power goes out. I live at the end of the electricity pole. The local electricity supplier got booked recently (I reported it) when I discovered it was changing voltage by +-10V every 2 seconds, not ideal :/.
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Well BT has said they will phase out the normal phone service by 2025 and have also dropped the Fibre to Voice service which came with a Battery Backup Unit so whilst you may be sitting pretty now, it isn't going to last forever. For many folks in the UK FTTC is not that much more expensive than ADSL.
 
Alsilisk said:
I am using DSL right now.... I went to a friends once who had fibre. Had no idea such speeds were possible. To be frank people are happy with DSL, only the very wealthy can afford fibre not to mention how much it depends on location. At least the phones stay awake when the power goes out. I live at the end of the electricity pole. The local electricity supplier got booked recently (I reported it) when I discovered it was changing voltage by +-10V every 2 seconds, not ideal :/.
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You had your electricity supply company 'booked' because the voltage was changing +/- 10V every few seconds...Umm what? How did this 'booking' work exactly? Putting aside that the company you buy from as an end user is only a reseller and does not directly operate or control any infrastructure, the average UK voltage will constantly vary from roughly 220V-250V based on supply & demand and equipment must be designed to work within those tolerances. You don't get to have an exactly fixed voltage from a mains supply!

g4ugm said:
Well BT has said they will phase out the normal phone service by 2025 and have also dropped the Fibre to Voice service which came with a Battery Backup Unit so whilst you may be sitting pretty now, it isn't going to last forever. For many folks in the UK FTTC is not that much more expensive than ADSL.
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I don't think this story is fully understood. Openreach will phase out the copper PSTN network and ISDN in 2025. The associated products they sell wholesale to service providers based on these technologies will cease. BT as a service provider (as opposed to Openreach) will stop supplying any form of traditional phone line to businesses (but not home users) at the same time. Other providers will probably follow suit, but don't have to.

That's not quite the same as phasing out normal phones entirely. The last bit of copper going into buildings will remain and any domestic services currently used (including a landline service) will continue, it will just be data based behind the scenes with equipment in the cabinet to convert. It does mean the default will likely be to sell 'naked' DSL/FTTC products which don't include a phone number and line and consequently there will probably be a drastic reduction in the number of landlines in use, but it will still be something you can specify if you want. Openreach will also offer a 500Kbps 'Virtual Analogue' wholesale product specifically so service providers can continue to provide a traditional style phone line compatible with analogue PSTN equipment to people who just want a landline with no internet. Customers on those products will continue to just plug in a phone and it will just work.
 
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cwathen said:
I don't think this story is fully understood. Openreach will phase out the copper PSTN network and ISDN in 2025. The associated products they sell wholesale to service providers based on these technologies will cease. BT as a service provider (as opposed to Openreach) will stop supplying any form of traditional phone line to businesses (but not home users) at the same time. Other providers will probably follow suit, but don't have to.

That's not quite the same as phasing out normal phones entirely. The last bit of copper going into buildings will remain and any domestic services currently used (including a landline service) will continue, it will just be data based behind the scenes with equipment in the cabinet to convert. It does mean the default will likely be to sell 'naked' DSL/FTTC products which don't include a phone number and line and consequently there will probably be a drastic reduction in the number of landlines in use, but it will still be something you can specify if you want. Openreach will also offer a 500Kbps 'Virtual Analogue' wholesale product specifically so service providers can continue to provide a traditional style phone line compatible with analogue PSTN equipment to people who just want a landline with no internet. Customers on those products will continue to just plug in a phone and it will just work.
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That is not how I read the OFCOM document.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/137966/future-fixed-telephone-services.pdf

as far as I can see it makes no difference if you are home or business user. The BT announcement which is reported here says:-

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...elling-copper-phone-in-118-areas-go-fttp.html

Under this plan Openreach said that, in June 2020, they intend to give 12-months’ notice that “we’ll no longer be selling copper-based products” in those exchanges areas, which will start the clock on their migration process toward the retirement of legacy phone services and, ultimately, copper withdrawal too (see illustration above). It’s expected that more than 75% of homes in these locations will be covered with FTTP come June 2021.

Various new products have been created to help ISPs and consumers deal with this process, such as a special low speed 0.5Mbps FTTP tier (here) that can be used to help cater for those homes which just require a voice-only service. However some people will no doubt find such a transition difficult (change is rarely easy) and much will depend upon whether or not customers are hit with any extra costs or hassle, as well as how ISPs handle it all.

so specifically "homes" & "no copper what so ever"
 
g4ugm said:
so specifically "homes" & "no copper what so ever"
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Sources seem to vary tremendously and conflate various things. For one thing, 'BT' is still often used as a generic term in articles which may variously be referring to announcements from Openreach, BT Wholesale and BT Consumer which all mean different things and can be conflicting. Some articles out rightly conflict. Eg this article https://www.telcotitans.com/btwatch/ofcom-go-ahead-for-openreach-race-to-switch-off-copper/1900.article doesn't seem to support no copper at all by 2025.

Given there appears to be zero mainstream media coverage (I've googled it several different ways and don't get a single return from an MSM site) I don't personally believe there could possibly be enough public awareness to do this within a few years. And for many, it would be difficult to transition away so quickly. It's not so much about potentially putting a router and a VOIP phone into your Gran's house, it's that many business uses rely entirely on PSTN with no immediately obvious replacement products. As well as the obvious things like alarm monitoring, my workplace still specifies a functioning fax machine per site (even if now delivered by an MFP) as an emergency backup to ensure documents can be sent and receive in the even of an IT failure. It's used rarely, but has been used often enough to make TPTB reluctant to drop it and they also specify for every site to have an 'emergency phone' - a basic, no electricity required, corded landline phone to be located in the 'safe haven' (a room in which staff would secure themselves in the event that they were at risk) so that there will always be a functioning phone available in that room irrespective of whether there is mobile signal, or the cordless VOIP phones being left out of the secure space (or the VOIP platform failing), or just a power outage. Again, very rarely have these phones been used in anger, but they have been used on occasion and are still specified.

Solutions to all these problems will not be deliverable within a 2025 timeframe. And if a service provider can package up a service which obscures the shift to a fibre network from the consumer, a market for it will exist. I know that my workplace would change provider to keep their fax machines and emergency phones (even at increased cost) long before they gave them up.
 
This is going to sound ridiculous, but is it possible, lacking a land line, to use a modem over a fiber or cable connection? For example something that a modem of a vintage computer could connect to that enables it to dial a Dialup 4 Less Number and actually transmit/receive or, failing that, bridge directly to the Internet?
 
Well, there are serial to TCP/IP devices.

I've been told that landline service obtained through a telephone company's fiber/DSL bridge should function with Modems and Fax. (although going through the phone company's gadget defeats the point of having an alternate or backup communications method)
 
Landlines are getting much more expensive these days even if you don't use long distance. I wonder what percentage of the population uses a landline anymore (mostly old people like my mom).
 
Or people who want something that works reliably all the time, doesn't require constant recharging, doesn't require replacing and changing around every couple years, isn't hackable, and is actually audible when two people communicate using them.

But people who want that are old and should die, right?
 
the audio latency of any digital based voice service drives me crazy, I pretty much hate talking on the phone now

(never liked it a whole lot to begin with, but it was tolerable with wire speed audio)
 
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