Commodore Superpet SP9000

[Pet Rescue]

Hi I have a few questions about the Superpet:-

How rare are they?

How much are they to buy?

Can it work without the dongle in the top board?

Do they have two or four switches on the side?

Can you obtain the side switches and roms?

Where do they plug into on the three board earlier type? (which switch to where, which board and its connector)

Sorry for all the questions, I have been googling and found some info and pictures but not the info above.

 

[sjgray]

- Fairly Rare
- $200 to $1000
- Yes, not used in 6502 mode. Yes, if you use the de-protected languages in 6809 mode.
http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/superpet/waterloo-languages/
- Some have 2 some 4. Depends if you have two extra boards or one "combo" 6809 board.
- The switches are simple toggle switches mounted on a "J" shape bracket and the pins connect to headers on the board.
- ROMs and info is on zimmers. There is a document showing all connections.
http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/SuperPET/index.html

Steve

 

[Pet Rescue]

- Fairly Rare
- $200 to $1000
- Yes, not used in 6502 mode. Yes, if you use the de-protected languages in 6809 mode.
http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/superpet/waterloo-languages/
- Some have 2 some 4. Depends if you have two extra boards or one "combo" 6809 board.
- The switches are simple toggle switches mounted on a "J" shape bracket and the pins connect to headers on the board.
- ROMs and info is on zimmers. There is a document showing all connections.
http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/SuperPET/index.html

Steve

Thanks for the reply Steve, you are a wealth of Commodore knowledge!:D

I may be getting one soon it's a three board (including original mainboard) type but it is missing the dongle board at the top and has no switches at all.
To say it needs a bit of work is an understatement and I just hope it is undamaged inside! I'll bet also the ROM's for the switches are missing too,
do the three board Superpets have two or four switches or is it not as simple as that knowing Commodore?
I have noticed some switches connect to the Waterloo middle board at the front by the RS232 din connector as well as two ROM sockets.
But I'm not sure if the other switches connect to the Waterloo middle board on the side behind the RS232?
Hope that makes sense!

P.S. Just read the links properly and that zimmers one is excellent!!

 

[Moonferret]

If it's the one that was listed on Ebay recently, you are brave man indeed for taking that restoration on

Like you said, if the internals are ok, that's the main thing. A case can be salvaged from another PET.

Good luck if you do go for it and please take before & after photos !

Cheers,
Dave

 

[sjgray]

I did a google images search and there are several pics of SuperPET boards and switches. That should help you out. I have a few SuperPETs but they are all the "combo" board version so I can't help much with the 2-board version. I do know there were a couple revisions of the combo board and I know that commodore moved the pin headers that the switches connect to.

Good luck!
Steve

 

[daver2]

Hi Pet Rescue.

All of the Waterloo Languages check for the presence of the 6702 'dongle' device and 'crash' in horrible ways if it is not present!

If you look on Mike's website (as per sjgray's link above) you will find that some very kind person has provided a set of disk images that have had the 6702 protection removed from them. There is also a PDF file on Mike's website detailing how I did it...

Since then, I have completely 'reverse engineered' the 6702 silicon (with the help of a number of people around the world) and I now have a pretty visual simulation of the device (similar to that on visual6502.org) and the complete transistor-level schematic for it. It is basically 8 parallel chains of 8 shift registers with various XOR feedback loops. I suspect I can develop some 5V logic from the schematic I now have. I am still waiting for the schematic and the visual simulation to go up on the website - but if you want me to PM you a copy just ask.

The latest version of VICE (the Versatile Commodore Emulator) has the SP9000 functionality built into it - so I would suggest also downloading that and having a play to become familiar with the Waterloo languages. One of the reasons we needed to 'break' the 6702 device was to add this functionality to VICE - but now we have it broken - we should be able to develop a new daughter card for SP9000's that don't have them. It may be that other SP9000 software still uses the 6702. This will work OK in VICE - but not on a 'real' SP9000 without the 6702.

I can help you out with the interconnections you will need to perform. Let me know what the state of the SP9000 is when you get it and we can go from there.

There should be sufficient information on www.zimmers.net for everything you need - from the ROM images to the schematics. For example, the switches interconnect to J4 (top right-hand side of schematic http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/SuperPET/324037-1.gif).

I am down in Worcester - but I pretty much pass you on the M6 every couple of weeks or so on my trek North to Lancashire.

Incidentally, a bit green with envy . I have been after a set of SP9000 boards for my 8032 for a while now. I just missed a set a while ago - I was away on business so missed the auction. It had the little 6702 daughter card though.

Dave

 

[Pet Rescue]

If it's the one that was listed on Ebay recently, you are brave man indeed for taking that restoration on

Like you said, if the internals are ok, that's the main thing. A case can be salvaged from another PET.

Good luck if you do go for it and please take before & after photos !

Cheers,
Dave

Thanks Dave I don't know about brave but that's the one! I hope it makes it o.k. that's why I'm not too hopeful it will get here in one piece.
She is a bit beat up but I'm a glutton for punishment and felt sorry for such a great piece of Commodore hardware!
That's the idea to replace the top case and repair the bottom casing, oh but give it one hell of a clean first as it looks like its been in a skip.
I'll post some photo's when(if!) it arrives!

I did a google images search and there are several pics of SuperPET boards and switches. That should help you out. I have a few SuperPETs but they are all the "combo" board version so I can't help much with the 2-board version. I do know there were a couple revisions of the combo board and I know that commodore moved the pin headers that the switches connect to.

Good luck!
Steve

Cheers Steve I wasn't sure if the header was on the board that's coming at the front or side. I didn't realise about the revisions but I'll hopefully be
a bit more clear when it arrives!

Hi Pet Rescue.

All of the Waterloo Languages check for the presence of the 6702 'dongle' device and 'crash' in horrible ways if it is not present!

If you look on Mike's website (as per sjgray's link above) you will find that some very kind person has provided a set of disk images that have had the 6702 protection removed from them. There is also a PDF file on Mike's website detailing how I did it...

Since then, I have completely 'reverse engineered' the 6702 silicon (with the help of a number of people around the world) and I now have a pretty visual simulation of the device (similar to that on visual6502.org) and the complete transistor-level schematic for it. It is basically 8 parallel chains of 8 shift registers with various XOR feedback loops. I suspect I can develop some 5V logic from the schematic I now have. I am still waiting for the schematic and the visual simulation to go up on the website - but if you want me to PM you a copy just ask.

The latest version of VICE (the Versatile Commodore Emulator) has the SP9000 functionality built into it - so I would suggest also downloading that and having a play to become familiar with the Waterloo languages. One of the reasons we needed to 'break' the 6702 device was to add this functionality to VICE - but now we have it broken - we should be able to develop a new daughter card for SP9000's that don't have them. It may be that other SP9000 software still uses the 6702. This will work OK in VICE - but not on a 'real' SP9000 without the 6702.

I can help you out with the interconnections you will need to perform. Let me know what the state of the SP9000 is when you get it and we can go from there.

There should be sufficient information on www.zimmers.net for everything you need - from the ROM images to the schematics. For example, the switches interconnect to J4 (top right-hand side of schematic http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/SuperPET/324037-1.gif).

I am down in Worcester - but I pretty much pass you on the M6 every couple of weeks or so on my trek North to Lancashire.

Incidentally, a bit green with envy . I have been after a set of SP9000 boards for my 8032 for a while now. I just missed a set a while ago - I was away on business so missed the auction. It had the little 6702 daughter card though.

Dave

Wow Dave that sounds really interesting work, I'll keep you informed on it's state of it when it arrives.
Hope you get lucky obtaining the boards, out of curiosity how much did they sell for?
Even though it's very ropey to say the least I couldn't resist buying it even though I told the wife no more PET's:D
You don't fancy reverse engineering a 6509 CPU by any chance? they are getting hard to get hold of!
Thanks for your offer of help regarding the 6702 I'll be interested in any info.
I can't seem to get onto Mike's website it keeps getting blocked by my browser settings.

 

[daver2]

Yeah - it was really cool once we got the simulation of the 6702 up and running and the schematic 'fell out' from the reverse engineering. I am sure there are some ex Commodore/MOS silicon engineers out there somewhere that remember this chip - but no one is coming forwards even today with what they know for some reason.

The SP9000 cards didn't actually sell on e-bay. Unfortunately, I checked e-bay a few days after the end of the sale. I contacted the seller - but they had been sold (so I suspect that someone else had contacted them after the sale as well and sneaked in before me).

I have the D64 images here of the unprotected Waterloo Language disks - so I can send you them directly via a PM when you are ready for them if you can't get onto Mike's site.

The two switches are both 1 pole 3 way toggle switches. One of the switches permits manual selection of either the 6502 CPU, the 6809 CPU - or the selection can be made under program control (PROG). Likewise, the other switch manually prevents the bank switched RAM from being written to (READ) or permits it to be read from / written to (R/W) or controllable under program control (PROG). These switches only have three wires connected to each of them - for two of the three options. The third option is with all of the connections 'open circuited'. If that doesn't make sense to you - I can walk you through it a bit slower. You should be able to pick up any old 3 position toggle switches to test it out - and then look for the 'right thing' later when you know the equipment works.

To reverse engineer the 6509 - someone will have to sacrifice one first! Mike sacrificed one of his 6702 chips to determine what was inside one. The chip is 'decapitated' and multiple, overlapping high resolution photographs taken. These are then stitched together to make a giant image of the top of the chip. Next, each layer of the chip is removed and the resultant surface imaged again. Next, the chip layers are converted into polygons - with each layer corresponding to the various parts of the chip. From this, the functionality can be deduced (eventually). The 6702 was relatively simple - but still took many months. A 6509 will take somewhat longer...

Good luck with your SP9000!

Dave

 

[Pet Rescue]

Yeah - it was really cool once we got the simulation of the 6702 up and running and the schematic 'fell out' from the reverse engineering. I am sure there are some ex Commodore/MOS silicon engineers out there somewhere that remember this chip - but no one is coming forwards even today with what they know for some reason.

The SP9000 cards didn't actually sell on e-bay. Unfortunately, I checked e-bay a few days after the end of the sale. I contacted the seller - but they had been sold (so I suspect that someone else had contacted them after the sale as well and sneaked in before me).

I have the D64 images here of the unprotected Waterloo Language disks - so I can send you them directly via a PM when you are ready for them if you can't get onto Mike's site.

The two switches are both 1 pole 3 way toggle switches. One of the switches permits manual selection of either the 6502 CPU, the 6809 CPU - or the selection can be made under program control (PROG). Likewise, the other switch manually prevents the bank switched RAM from being written to (READ) or permits it to be read from / written to (R/W) or controllable under program control (PROG). These switches only have three wires connected to each of them - for two of the three options. The third option is with all of the connections 'open circuited'. If that doesn't make sense to you - I can walk you through it a bit slower. You should be able to pick up any old 3 position toggle switches to test it out - and then look for the 'right thing' later when you know the equipment works.

To reverse engineer the 6509 - someone will have to sacrifice one first! Mike sacrificed one of his 6702 chips to determine what was inside one. The chip is 'decapitated' and multiple, overlapping high resolution photographs taken. These are then stitched together to make a giant image of the top of the chip. Next, each layer of the chip is removed and the resultant surface imaged again. Next, the chip layers are converted into polygons - with each layer corresponding to the various parts of the chip. From this, the functionality can be deduced (eventually). The 6702 was relatively simple - but still took many months. A 6509 will take somewhat longer...

Good luck with your SP9000!

Dave

Thanks for the reply Dave the info on the switches as it will help me when it gets here and I hope to make a set then look for originals.
Regarding the 6509, does it have to be a working or can a non functioning one do the trick?
I'd love to get down to chip level as it sounds really interesting work but my knowledge of electronics isn't what it should be!
I bet those early pioneers had a great time first designing them!
I bet the 6509 would have quite a few takers as I have three machines myself and only one functioning 6509!
A group have re engineered the 6502 I believe so if you know what your doing I bet it wouldn't be too dissimilar!

 

[sjgray]

Regarding the 6509, does it have to be a working or can a non functioning one do the trick?
I'd love to get down to chip level as it sounds really interesting work but my knowledge of electronics isn't what it should be!
I bet those early pioneers had a great time first designing them!
I bet the 6509 would have quite a few takers as I have three machines myself and only one functioning 6509!

I believe the visual6502.org people will take non-functioning chips. If you have two broken ones you should send them one or both to de-cap and model! Replacement 6509's are almost impossible to find now. We should help preserve the chip if possible. There was some discussion on 6502.org forum about making a functional equivalent based on a 6502 and some additional logic but actually reverse-engineering the real thing would be much better.

Steve
The CBM-II Page: http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/index.html

 

[Pet Rescue]

I believe the visual6502.org people will take non-functioning chips. If you have two broken ones you should send them one or both to de-cap and model! Replacement 6509's are almost impossible to find now. We should help preserve the chip if possible. There was some discussion on 6502.org forum about making a functional equivalent based on a 6502 and some additional logic but actually reverse-engineering the real thing would be much better.

Steve
The CBM-II Page: http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/index.html

I will have to get my 710 out of the loft and pull the chip then Steve, just to edit the above I forgot about my P500 so make that four machines!:D

 

[Pet Rescue]

Hopefully photo's have added, well she finally arrived Monday and as you can see she needed a bit of work :D

 

[Pet Rescue]

The top casing was completely smashed with the base bent out of shape and when I checked the CRT, the neck was smashed too!
The whole computer inside was covered in a kind of glue that was all over the base and the circuit boards it smelt like engine oil.
After a lot of hard work the glue was removed and the case was straightened out, unfortunately the Compu Think board card edge
connector was broken and when I was cleaning the glue off some of the silk screening came off the board.
Luckily the name badge was intact without damage. All of the circuit board stand off's had sheared off so the boards were loose.

 

[Rick Ethridge]

I sure hope you can restore your SuperPet. There are so very few left and Pets have escalated in price!

 

[jltursan]

Wow, seems beyond any effort :-(
Maybe if the boards can be repaired and rescuing the badge you can install them into another case and monitor...

 

[Pet Rescue]

I sure hope you can restore your SuperPet. There are so very few left and Pets have escalated in price!

Thanks Rick I just needed to restore it especially with it looking that smashed!

Wow, seems beyond any effort :-(
Maybe if the boards can be repaired and rescuing the badge you can install them into another case and monitor...

It did look bad but I looked past the damage and did exactly what you have said, I had an 8032 that has the exact same case with the correct monitor
and right keyboard cut out. I removed the foil Commodore label using a hairdryer, the foil separated from the white backing as I peeled it of but the
white backing came away ok so I'll need a glue to reattach the foil to white backing so I can reuse If I can get another casing!
I peeled the Super Pet label off the same way and was tempted to remove the glue but it was a clear textured plastic front that if painted in two stages,
the black and then the white lettering. I thought I'm not going to mess and ruin it so left the old glue on and used double sided adhesive tape to
reattach it to the donor case.
I need new stand off's for the boards but I used a couple from the old monitor board and used the broken of pins to screw them on to.
The fuse was smashed off so as a temporary measure I heat sleeved the bare holder for now till I obtain one.
The boards were all re secured to the base and all the wiring was attached.
I took a deep breath and turned on the power and the delightful noise of the piezo speaker bleeped.
The monitor showed the Commodore screen with all it's memory showing.
I jumpered J4 to start up in 6809 mode and turned it on again, a bit of a delay and the Waterloo start up screen.
So there you are one rescued Super Pet, really can't understand why someone would throw in a skip a working machine.
It looked like it would have been in good condition before it's time in a skip.

The only downside was using the 8032 as a donor.
Jobs to do now are locate some stand off's and a new fuse holder.

 

[snuci]

Great job on that restoration. You lived up to your name I think I have the same model with three boards and 4 switches so if you need any pictures or info, let me know.

I still have an issue with mine where it comes up with the Waterloo display but I can't boot a language. You may want to try this just to be certain it's totally fine.

 

[mjnurney]

excellent work , well done. The damaged case could be repaired I'm sure although it would need repainting.

Im impressed it managed to power up

 

[Pet Rescue]

I still have an issue with mine where it comes up with the Waterloo display but I can't boot a language. You may want to try this just to be certain it's totally fine.

Thanks snuci!! I'm not too sure how to use it to be honest, If I type setup it comes up with a list saying baud, parity etc..
If I type monitor it come up Waterloo microMonitor.
If I type BASIC it comes up Loading 'disk/1.BASIC'
Program not found

Same for Apl,Edit, Fortran, Pascal and developement.

Do you need the disks for it to work?

 

[snuci]

Yes, for the languages to work, you need the disks from the link that was posted above to Mike's site. I just couldn't get the disks to work but it was probably my set up. I had an 8050 drive that was flaky and tried it from a Commodore Flyer, if I recall correctly.

Good luck.